6 ms·

The belief that a woman with the same experience, skill, etc. is a worse performer would lead to a lower salary for women. That's the whole point of contention.

The belief that a woman with the same experience, skill, etc. is a worse performer would lead to a lower salary for women. That's the whole point of contention. And we should probably let go of the idea that markets are rational.

mafribe 9y ago
If the gender paygap truly existed, a large amounts of money could be made. Given the prevalence of wealthy left-wing, SJWs, male feministist types on HN and in Silicon Valley, one wonders why none of them leads by example and hires woman only. Action speaks louder than words!
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > one wonders why none of them leads by example and hires woman only. Because that's blatantly, bright-line illegal?
  - protomyth 9y ago
    Daycares in the USA get away with it, and, sadly, a lot of parents are very happy about it. Look at the gender % for daycares and elementary school. This is actually a rather larger problem since we are not properly providing young boys with role models.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      You may consider it "improper", but actually young boys are provided with plenty of role models, they just happen to be female.
      - protomyth 9y ago
        If you reverse the sexes in your response then there would be outrage. Boys need to see men interacting with men and women to pick up on the social cues.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Daycares in the USA get away with it, With a policy of hiring only women, or with being a field of mostly female solo operators without employees, with nearly 100% of applicants for places that do hire employees being female? Because the two things aren't equivalent in the law.
      - protomyth 9y ago
        By hiring only women as a policy. People overlook it, and a lot of parents don't want their children changed by a man. Plus, insurance companies mysteriously raise rates when men are on staff. My college friend started a daycare for his church and encountered all this fun, and I had to deal with some of these issues when we were running daycares (excuse me, Early Childhood Education centers) in the 90's. I would imagine after rejection after rejection men would find something else (insurance was my friends out). It still amazes me how many industries insurance companies seem to influence the hiring in.
        ensignavenger 9y ago
        Do the insurance companies ask about the gender of a daycares staff?
        protomyth 9y ago
        The one my friend dealt with got a list so they could do their own background check, plus it was pretty obvious to the rep it was a guy asking for the quote this time as opposed to the first quote.
  - mafribe 9y ago
    Sounds like a rationalisation. Plenty of places have no problem hiring (almost) only women, e.g. kindergarden, waitresses, art galleries, medical sociologists, stewardesses. In any case I doubt this would be illegal in every legislation. In the US men are not a "protected group". Where there is a will there is a (legal) way! I imagine that a company could legally load up with women to the max, compensate with differential hiring: e.g. only hiring female programmers, compensate with lower paid male drivers/cleaners. Or use outsourcing. I'm sure if Dorsey, Zuckerberg, Pichai etc really belived that women are underpaid vis-a-vis their contribution, they could easily make it happen. Indeed, they are now so powerful they could get their army of lobbyists to change the law. Action speaks louder than words.
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Plenty of places have no problem hiring (almost) only women, e.g. kindergarden, waitresses, art galleries, medical sociologists, stewardesses. Yes, there's plenty of kinds of jobs men don't apply for at nearly the rate women do. That's certainly not the case for programming jobs. > In any case I doubnt this would be illegal in every legislation. In the US men are not a "protected group" This is simply factually incorrect; in employment, sex—not just one sex—is a protected class, federally [0] and separately under most state laws, as well. About the only assymetric protected class in employment is age, where discrimination is only protected against when it is against those over 40. [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm
      - mafribe 9y ago
        > there's plenty of kinds of jobs men don't apply for at nearly the rate women do. There's plenty of kinds of jobs Women don't apply for at nearly the rate men do.
        dragonwriter 9y ago
        > There's plenty of kinds of jobs Women don't apply for at nearly the rate men do. Yes, but that's not germane to the discussion.
- Brotkrumen 9y ago
  How can the paygap truly not exist when there are so many wealthy, right-wing, male sexist types in HN, Silicon Valley and any industry really? Maybe you shouldn't rely on a thought-experiment when you can do data: Adjusted paygaps consistenly range between 4-7%. Say, the SJW publication Fortune: http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/myth-gender-wage-gap/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/myth-gender-wage-gap/ Or the left-wing washington post https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/business/women-pay-gap/?utm_term=.3440dd33647c https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/business/women-...
  - collyw 9y ago
    Pretty sure there are lots of left wing hardcore feminist types in Silicon Valley as well.

mafribe 9y ago

If the gender paygap truly existed, a large amounts of money could be made. Given the prevalence of wealthy left-wing, SJWs, male feministist types on HN and in Silicon Valley, one wonders why none of them leads by example and hires woman only. Action speaks louder than words!

dragonwriter 9y ago
> one wonders why none of them leads by example and hires woman only. Because that's blatantly, bright-line illegal?
- protomyth 9y ago
  Daycares in the USA get away with it, and, sadly, a lot of parents are very happy about it. Look at the gender % for daycares and elementary school. This is actually a rather larger problem since we are not properly providing young boys with role models.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    You may consider it "improper", but actually young boys are provided with plenty of role models, they just happen to be female.
    - protomyth 9y ago
      If you reverse the sexes in your response then there would be outrage. Boys need to see men interacting with men and women to pick up on the social cues.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Daycares in the USA get away with it, With a policy of hiring only women, or with being a field of mostly female solo operators without employees, with nearly 100% of applicants for places that do hire employees being female? Because the two things aren't equivalent in the law.
    - protomyth 9y ago
      By hiring only women as a policy. People overlook it, and a lot of parents don't want their children changed by a man. Plus, insurance companies mysteriously raise rates when men are on staff. My college friend started a daycare for his church and encountered all this fun, and I had to deal with some of these issues when we were running daycares (excuse me, Early Childhood Education centers) in the 90's. I would imagine after rejection after rejection men would find something else (insurance was my friends out). It still amazes me how many industries insurance companies seem to influence the hiring in.
      - ensignavenger 9y ago
        Do the insurance companies ask about the gender of a daycares staff?
        protomyth 9y ago
        The one my friend dealt with got a list so they could do their own background check, plus it was pretty obvious to the rep it was a guy asking for the quote this time as opposed to the first quote.
- mafribe 9y ago
  Sounds like a rationalisation. Plenty of places have no problem hiring (almost) only women, e.g. kindergarden, waitresses, art galleries, medical sociologists, stewardesses. In any case I doubt this would be illegal in every legislation. In the US men are not a "protected group". Where there is a will there is a (legal) way! I imagine that a company could legally load up with women to the max, compensate with differential hiring: e.g. only hiring female programmers, compensate with lower paid male drivers/cleaners. Or use outsourcing. I'm sure if Dorsey, Zuckerberg, Pichai etc really belived that women are underpaid vis-a-vis their contribution, they could easily make it happen. Indeed, they are now so powerful they could get their army of lobbyists to change the law. Action speaks louder than words.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Plenty of places have no problem hiring (almost) only women, e.g. kindergarden, waitresses, art galleries, medical sociologists, stewardesses. Yes, there's plenty of kinds of jobs men don't apply for at nearly the rate women do. That's certainly not the case for programming jobs. > In any case I doubnt this would be illegal in every legislation. In the US men are not a "protected group" This is simply factually incorrect; in employment, sex—not just one sex—is a protected class, federally [0] and separately under most state laws, as well. About the only assymetric protected class in employment is age, where discrimination is only protected against when it is against those over 40. [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm
    - mafribe 9y ago
      > there's plenty of kinds of jobs men don't apply for at nearly the rate women do. There's plenty of kinds of jobs Women don't apply for at nearly the rate men do.
      - dragonwriter 9y ago
        > There's plenty of kinds of jobs Women don't apply for at nearly the rate men do. Yes, but that's not germane to the discussion.
Brotkrumen 9y ago
How can the paygap truly not exist when there are so many wealthy, right-wing, male sexist types in HN, Silicon Valley and any industry really? Maybe you shouldn't rely on a thought-experiment when you can do data: Adjusted paygaps consistenly range between 4-7%. Say, the SJW publication Fortune: http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/myth-gender-wage-gap/ http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/myth-gender-wage-gap/ Or the left-wing washington post https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/business/women-pay-gap/?utm_term=.3440dd33647c https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/business/women-...
- collyw 9y ago
  Pretty sure there are lots of left wing hardcore feminist types in Silicon Valley as well.