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I think you misunderstand what Social Mobility is, Wikipedia says it's: > the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people with

I think you misunderstand what Social Mobility is, Wikipedia says it's: > the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to one's current social location within a given society. Which would be exactly what people would call opportunities. Social mobility is not at all aimed at fixed equality. It's about being provided equal opportunities, for example by having good, free, public education. In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt. This leads to low social mobility, since the rich have a better chance at getting a degree than the poor do.

ThomPete 9y ago
No, I understand very well what it means. The land of opportunity isn't the same as social mobility and isn't meant to be the same either. You don't come to the US because of social mobility, you come here to improve your current situation and relatively, the US provides in spades compared to going to many European countries where you are stuck in some social welfare system and will never actually be able to move out of it. The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for the opportunity. The ability to break out of your social heritage isn't better in Denmark in any meaningful way. It's a common misconception but was debunked by ex. the Rockwool Foundation who found that Despite free education people were still ending up doing the same as their parents no matter the US or Denmark.
- spiderfarmer 9y ago
  The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for opportunity. I'm not sure what your argument is here. Are you saying there's more "opportunity" in the US because their healthcare sucks? What are you trying to say?
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    I was responding to your claim: "The "American Dream" gives people the impression that working hard solves everything and that their country is the best in the world period" Which is both wrong and missing what the American Dream is all about. It's very far from any European idea of equality, I say that as an European myself and grew up in one of the most equal countries (Denmark). But once you get to live in the US you quickly realize why Scandinavia style healthcare can never work in the US. It's simply not structured both geographically, culturally, immigration wise and politically to ever work. As a country with opportunities, nothing really beat the US when all things are considered. That doesn't mean everyone is making it that's not the goal either.
    - spiderfarmer 9y ago
      I think you're saying that you have more opportunity in the US because the risks are higher? Your argument reads like an incomplete thought. I fail to see how immigration and geography are related. Culture is related, but that could easily change if people weren't told what to think by conservative pastors and media. I happen to think that opportunities are bigger in the US because of less regulation, a bigger market with no language barriers and more venture capital and that the US could do even better if people didn't have to worry about hospital bills. There's a lot more potential.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        There is more opportunity because of a lot of different things one of them being culture, another access to capital, access to global markets, another being big English speaking country, another being a much bigger reliance on civil society to take care of many of the things that governments take care of in Europe and of course the military. The US is actually not doing well on a lot of individual parameters but if you look at everything as a whole it just ends up being a country with more opportunity than any other country and I would challenge you to find any country that's better than the US in those terms. When it comes to healthcare geography and immigration is related because of the way a single payer social healthcare system works. The US have to deal with immigration both legal and illegal. You can't just give 11mio illegal immigrants access to to healthcare just as people who immigrate much later haven't been paying to the system their whole lives. Furthermore because of the distance if you want to provide equal treatment it's going to be very expensive or you have to spend a lot of money on transportation. These are just some of the issues which normally gets completetly ignored but are actually crucial to understanding why the US can't be the same as European countries.
- donkeyd 9y ago
  You're mixing multiple discussions into one: - Does welfare help opportunity? - Is social mobility the same as opportunity? The bottom one is the one we're discussing and the answer is yes, because that's what it is. Social mobility also isn't equality, because in a truly equal state, social mobility would be virtually non-existent, since everybody would be equal. Also, like you previously mentioned yourself, there is no 'European welfare system'. There are lots of different countries with lots of different systems and they all work out differently. The common denominator is that most of them work out better than the US does. I would recommend reading the wikipedia page on social mobility for some more info. It also explains why equality is in fact important for opportunity, unlike what you wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    No I am responding the OP who mixed in a lot of different discussions into his analysis of why the US spend much more than other nations. We are talking about a very specific idea of opportunity (the american dream) which was what I responded to. When it comes to social mobility again Denmark isn't doing much better than the US. I would recommend you read the Rockwool Foundation report on this matter. I am well aware of social mobility and wha tit means. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28649168 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28649168
weberc2 9y ago
> In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt The average student loan debt is something like $40K, not $200K, and there are quite a few scholarships. I got one for going into STEM--it paid something like $2K/year and I got my degree with only $7K of debt, but I set up my schedule so I could work while I wasn't in class and I didn't lead the lavish lifestyle that my peers did. Of course, the US education system is still unnecessarily expensive--but this falls out from the government's attempt to make it affordable--the government subsidized education by giving students loans and universities responded by competing on things students care most about: manicured campuses and lavish amenities. There are other things as well--additional administrators ("diversity officers" and "bias response teams"), but it mostly falls out from student loan money. Even still, there are lots of great schools that still compete on education and great services to help you find them, so doing better than the average $40K in debt is definitely feasible if not easy even without a scholarship.
- donkeyd 9y ago
  > The average student loan debt is something like $40K, not $200K You are correct, I picked the most extreme cases to make a point. Here in the Netherlands €40k is about the maximum you'd get and that is after taking your time and having a lavish lifestyle. The schools themselves are only €2k a year, currently.
zip1234 9y ago
You definitely don't have to go into debt like that. I know plenty of people that worked and went to community college for two years, transferred to the state school for the final two years, and graduated with little to no debt. People miss out on the 'college experience' aka drinking and partying, but they graduate with no debt. Also, there is no such thing as free services provided by the government. They are paid for by taxes.

ThomPete 9y ago

No, I understand very well what it means. The land of opportunity isn't the same as social mobility and isn't meant to be the same either. You don't come to the US because of social mobility, you come here to improve your current situation and relatively, the US provides in spades compared to going to many European countries where you are stuck in some social welfare system and will never actually be able to move out of it. The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for the opportunity. The ability to break out of your social heritage isn't better in Denmark in any meaningful way. It's a common misconception but was debunked by ex. the Rockwool Foundation who found that Despite free education people were still ending up doing the same as their parents no matter the US or Denmark.

spiderfarmer 9y ago
The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for opportunity. I'm not sure what your argument is here. Are you saying there's more "opportunity" in the US because their healthcare sucks? What are you trying to say?
- ThomPete 9y ago
  I was responding to your claim: "The "American Dream" gives people the impression that working hard solves everything and that their country is the best in the world period" Which is both wrong and missing what the American Dream is all about. It's very far from any European idea of equality, I say that as an European myself and grew up in one of the most equal countries (Denmark). But once you get to live in the US you quickly realize why Scandinavia style healthcare can never work in the US. It's simply not structured both geographically, culturally, immigration wise and politically to ever work. As a country with opportunities, nothing really beat the US when all things are considered. That doesn't mean everyone is making it that's not the goal either.
  - spiderfarmer 9y ago
    I think you're saying that you have more opportunity in the US because the risks are higher? Your argument reads like an incomplete thought. I fail to see how immigration and geography are related. Culture is related, but that could easily change if people weren't told what to think by conservative pastors and media. I happen to think that opportunities are bigger in the US because of less regulation, a bigger market with no language barriers and more venture capital and that the US could do even better if people didn't have to worry about hospital bills. There's a lot more potential.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      There is more opportunity because of a lot of different things one of them being culture, another access to capital, access to global markets, another being big English speaking country, another being a much bigger reliance on civil society to take care of many of the things that governments take care of in Europe and of course the military. The US is actually not doing well on a lot of individual parameters but if you look at everything as a whole it just ends up being a country with more opportunity than any other country and I would challenge you to find any country that's better than the US in those terms. When it comes to healthcare geography and immigration is related because of the way a single payer social healthcare system works. The US have to deal with immigration both legal and illegal. You can't just give 11mio illegal immigrants access to to healthcare just as people who immigrate much later haven't been paying to the system their whole lives. Furthermore because of the distance if you want to provide equal treatment it's going to be very expensive or you have to spend a lot of money on transportation. These are just some of the issues which normally gets completetly ignored but are actually crucial to understanding why the US can't be the same as European countries.
donkeyd 9y ago
You're mixing multiple discussions into one: - Does welfare help opportunity? - Is social mobility the same as opportunity? The bottom one is the one we're discussing and the answer is yes, because that's what it is. Social mobility also isn't equality, because in a truly equal state, social mobility would be virtually non-existent, since everybody would be equal. Also, like you previously mentioned yourself, there is no 'European welfare system'. There are lots of different countries with lots of different systems and they all work out differently. The common denominator is that most of them work out better than the US does. I would recommend reading the wikipedia page on social mobility for some more info. It also explains why equality is in fact important for opportunity, unlike what you wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
- ThomPete 9y ago
  No I am responding the OP who mixed in a lot of different discussions into his analysis of why the US spend much more than other nations. We are talking about a very specific idea of opportunity (the american dream) which was what I responded to. When it comes to social mobility again Denmark isn't doing much better than the US. I would recommend you read the Rockwool Foundation report on this matter. I am well aware of social mobility and wha tit means. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28649168 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28649168

weberc2 9y ago

> In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt The average student loan debt is something like $40K, not $200K, and there are quite a few scholarships. I got one for going into STEM--it paid something like $2K/year and I got my degree with only $7K of debt, but I set up my schedule so I could work while I wasn't in class and I didn't lead the lavish lifestyle that my peers did. Of course, the US education system is still unnecessarily expensive--but this falls out from the government's attempt to make it affordable--the government subsidized education by giving students loans and universities responded by competing on things students care most about: manicured campuses and lavish amenities. There are other things as well--additional administrators ("diversity officers" and "bias response teams"), but it mostly falls out from student loan money. Even still, there are lots of great schools that still compete on education and great services to help you find them, so doing better than the average $40K in debt is definitely feasible if not easy even without a scholarship.

donkeyd 9y ago
> The average student loan debt is something like $40K, not $200K You are correct, I picked the most extreme cases to make a point. Here in the Netherlands €40k is about the maximum you'd get and that is after taking your time and having a lavish lifestyle. The schools themselves are only €2k a year, currently.

zip1234 9y ago

You definitely don't have to go into debt like that. I know plenty of people that worked and went to community college for two years, transferred to the state school for the final two years, and graduated with little to no debt. People miss out on the 'college experience' aka drinking and partying, but they graduate with no debt. Also, there is no such thing as free services provided by the government. They are paid for by taxes.