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> America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well

> America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well. That's pretty easy. The measure you are looking for is social mobility. Most of Europe is more socially mobile than the US. In layman terms, it's easier to climb from the poorest quintile to the richest quintile. It's the result of the free education and social safety net that Europe is famous for. If you really want a country, ironically in Denmark social mobility is double the score of the US' [https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-americ...]

ThomPete 9y ago
Social mobility is not what "land of opportunity means" it's not meant to be an equal society in the normal sense. It's meant to be a society with opportunities. With regards to Denmark. When you look a little deeper in the numbers it's not actually true. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-american-dream-isnt-alive-in-denmark/494141/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-ame...
- donkeyd 9y ago
  I think you misunderstand what Social Mobility is, Wikipedia says it's: > the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to one's current social location within a given society. Which would be exactly what people would call opportunities. Social mobility is not at all aimed at fixed equality. It's about being provided equal opportunities, for example by having good, free, public education. In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt. This leads to low social mobility, since the rich have a better chance at getting a degree than the poor do.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    No, I understand very well what it means. The land of opportunity isn't the same as social mobility and isn't meant to be the same either. You don't come to the US because of social mobility, you come here to improve your current situation and relatively, the US provides in spades compared to going to many European countries where you are stuck in some social welfare system and will never actually be able to move out of it. The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for the opportunity. The ability to break out of your social heritage isn't better in Denmark in any meaningful way. It's a common misconception but was debunked by ex. the Rockwool Foundation who found that Despite free education people were still ending up doing the same as their parents no matter the US or Denmark.
    - spiderfarmer 9y ago
      The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for opportunity. I'm not sure what your argument is here. Are you saying there's more "opportunity" in the US because their healthcare sucks? What are you trying to say?
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        I was responding to your claim: "The "American Dream" gives people the impression that working hard solves everything and that their country is the best in the world period" Which is both wrong and missing what the American Dream is all about. It's very far from any European idea of equality, I say that as an European myself and grew up in one of the most equal countries (Denmark). But once you get to live in the US you quickly realize why Scandinavia style healthcare can never work in the US. It's simply not structured both geographically, culturally, immigration wise and politically to ever work. As a country with opportunities, nothing really beat the US when all things are considered. That doesn't mean everyone is making it that's not the goal either.
        spiderfarmer 9y ago
        I think you're saying that you have more opportunity in the US because the risks are higher? Your argument reads like an incomplete thought. I fail to see how immigration and geography are related. Culture is related, but that could easily change if people weren't told what to think by conservative pastors and media. I happen to think that opportunities are bigger in the US because of less regulation, a bigger market with no language barriers and more venture capital and that the US could do even better if people didn't have to worry about hospital bills. There's a lot more potential.
- danmaz74 9y ago
  > Social mobility is not what "land of opportunity means" it's not meant to be an equal society in the normal sense. It's meant to be a society with opportunities. Social equality and social mobility are almost opposite ideas. Mobility measures how likely (easy) it is to climb up the ladder, if you're good and/or lucky. Equality measures how steep/long is the ladder - in a totally equal society, there wouldn't be a ladder at all, so there would be zero social mobility.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Yes and the Denmark isn't doing any better than the US when it comes to that. Again I refer to the OP who started talking about a selfish US .
  - MaxBarraclough 9y ago
    You fail to distinguish equality of opportunity from equality of outcome.
    - danmaz74 9y ago
      I interpreted "equality" from the OP as equality of outcome, it looked pretty clear in that context.
refurb 9y ago
Social mobility measured by movement across quintiles is bullshit. The top quintile in the US is much higher than the EU. As a result someone in the EU moving from 10,000 EUR to 80,000 EUR might be going from the bottom to the top quintile. Someone moving from $10,000 to $125,000 in the US might be going from the bottom to the 3rd quintile. Less income mobility, but higher overall incomes. I'd prefer the US scenario.
- monocasa 9y ago
  You need to get out of your SV bubble if you think that $125k is 3rd quintile for the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States
  - refurb 9y ago
    It was an example, I made that number up. That why I said "might".
- TheBeardKing 9y ago
  I disagree. Money stops buying you happiness below $80k/year, or at least gives a very poor ROI. Knowing this, why would any sensible person choose a system which gives a much smaller chance of reaching this level? It's a very American way of thinking, in which we fixate on being incredibly wealthy, instead of just moderately wealthy. Why else do Powerball sales skyrocket when the jackpot is hundreds of millions, instead of just millions? Statistically, your chances of winning were much better when it were in the mere millions, and now you have a much smaller chance, though to be very elite instead of just elite.
  - usaar333 9y ago
    > Money stops buying you happiness below $80k/year I assume you mean above and that's a very strong claim that I've found personally to be quite false.
    - 9y ago

ThomPete 9y ago

Social mobility is not what "land of opportunity means" it's not meant to be an equal society in the normal sense. It's meant to be a society with opportunities. With regards to Denmark. When you look a little deeper in the numbers it's not actually true. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-american-dream-isnt-alive-in-denmark/494141/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-ame...

donkeyd 9y ago
I think you misunderstand what Social Mobility is, Wikipedia says it's: > the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to one's current social location within a given society. Which would be exactly what people would call opportunities. Social mobility is not at all aimed at fixed equality. It's about being provided equal opportunities, for example by having good, free, public education. In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt. This leads to low social mobility, since the rich have a better chance at getting a degree than the poor do.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  No, I understand very well what it means. The land of opportunity isn't the same as social mobility and isn't meant to be the same either. You don't come to the US because of social mobility, you come here to improve your current situation and relatively, the US provides in spades compared to going to many European countries where you are stuck in some social welfare system and will never actually be able to move out of it. The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for the opportunity. The ability to break out of your social heritage isn't better in Denmark in any meaningful way. It's a common misconception but was debunked by ex. the Rockwool Foundation who found that Despite free education people were still ending up doing the same as their parents no matter the US or Denmark.
  - spiderfarmer 9y ago
    The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for opportunity. I'm not sure what your argument is here. Are you saying there's more "opportunity" in the US because their healthcare sucks? What are you trying to say?
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      I was responding to your claim: "The "American Dream" gives people the impression that working hard solves everything and that their country is the best in the world period" Which is both wrong and missing what the American Dream is all about. It's very far from any European idea of equality, I say that as an European myself and grew up in one of the most equal countries (Denmark). But once you get to live in the US you quickly realize why Scandinavia style healthcare can never work in the US. It's simply not structured both geographically, culturally, immigration wise and politically to ever work. As a country with opportunities, nothing really beat the US when all things are considered. That doesn't mean everyone is making it that's not the goal either.
      - spiderfarmer 9y ago
        I think you're saying that you have more opportunity in the US because the risks are higher? Your argument reads like an incomplete thought. I fail to see how immigration and geography are related. Culture is related, but that could easily change if people weren't told what to think by conservative pastors and media. I happen to think that opportunities are bigger in the US because of less regulation, a bigger market with no language barriers and more venture capital and that the US could do even better if people didn't have to worry about hospital bills. There's a lot more potential.
danmaz74 9y ago
> Social mobility is not what "land of opportunity means" it's not meant to be an equal society in the normal sense. It's meant to be a society with opportunities. Social equality and social mobility are almost opposite ideas. Mobility measures how likely (easy) it is to climb up the ladder, if you're good and/or lucky. Equality measures how steep/long is the ladder - in a totally equal society, there wouldn't be a ladder at all, so there would be zero social mobility.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Yes and the Denmark isn't doing any better than the US when it comes to that. Again I refer to the OP who started talking about a selfish US .
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  You fail to distinguish equality of opportunity from equality of outcome.
  - danmaz74 9y ago
    I interpreted "equality" from the OP as equality of outcome, it looked pretty clear in that context.

refurb 9y ago

Social mobility measured by movement across quintiles is bullshit. The top quintile in the US is much higher than the EU. As a result someone in the EU moving from 10,000 EUR to 80,000 EUR might be going from the bottom to the top quintile. Someone moving from $10,000 to $125,000 in the US might be going from the bottom to the 3rd quintile. Less income mobility, but higher overall incomes. I'd prefer the US scenario.

monocasa 9y ago
You need to get out of your SV bubble if you think that $125k is 3rd quintile for the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States
- refurb 9y ago
  It was an example, I made that number up. That why I said "might".
TheBeardKing 9y ago
I disagree. Money stops buying you happiness below $80k/year, or at least gives a very poor ROI. Knowing this, why would any sensible person choose a system which gives a much smaller chance of reaching this level? It's a very American way of thinking, in which we fixate on being incredibly wealthy, instead of just moderately wealthy. Why else do Powerball sales skyrocket when the jackpot is hundreds of millions, instead of just millions? Statistically, your chances of winning were much better when it were in the mere millions, and now you have a much smaller chance, though to be very elite instead of just elite.
- usaar333 9y ago
  > Money stops buying you happiness below $80k/year I assume you mean above and that's a very strong claim that I've found personally to be quite false.
  - 9y ago