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You are missing a very important point which is that the US is a country of immigration and of different states and the US is a very very very big country. You

You are missing a very important point which is that the US is a country of immigration and of different states and the US is a very very very big country. You can't compare it to Holland or Denmark or even Germany. These solutions won't work here. America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well. Edit: The land of opportunity doesn't mean the land of equality and the expression was never intended to be that. America is not egoistic it's just a very hardcore country because it's built on top of people who with their lives at stake started exploring and setting up local societies. So the country is build on tough women and men. They aren't more selfish or egoistic than any other person, their reality is just different than a little country like holland or my own (Denmark).

spiderfarmer 9y ago
The US is a big country with different states, but so is the EU. The policies of Holland, Denmark or Germany could definately work in the US, if only the people developed a different stance on criminal behavior, healthcare, guns and taxes, America is the land of opportunity for some people. There are a lot of other countries with a lot of opportunities and freedom. More than 2 million people are incarcerated in the US right now. Where's the freedom in that? America is very egoistic and hard country, built on the lives poor people who were left behind by their fellow countrymen. With their stance on criminal behavior, healthcare, guns and taxes, the people in the US are definately more egoistic than people in more social democracies.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  You are confusing things here. Incarceration has nothing to do with what we are talking about. No one ever said the US is perfect. We are talking about whether 1) you can apply scandinavian style healthcare to the us (you can't) and whether the US provides more opportunities than other places (it still does) It's not equal and it's not trying to be equal either. EU isn't big geographically compared to the US and it's not as sparsely populated as the US is. That's what I mean with big. Yes, America is the land of opportunity for some. I don't think we were debating obvious truths here. The point is that America does, in fact, provide much more opportunities. That doesn't mean everyone is going to make it. That's never been the point about that expression anyway. The US isn't more selfish if we actually look at how many volunteer in the US that alone would show that it's not that simple.
  - deadbunny 9y ago
    > We are talking about whether 1) you can apply scandinavian style healthcare to the us (you can't) You keep repeating this throughout the thread without giving any actual arguments why. "Because we're not Scandinavia" is not a reason.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      You should read a little more careful what I write then. I do explain it.
- lr4444lr 9y ago
  Do you know why those people are incarcerated? They broke laws, and they were found guilty by a jury of their peers even upon the presumption of innocence. If charged with a given imprisonable offense, under what other country's court system would you prefer to be tried?
  - spiderfarmer 9y ago
    They broke laws, and they were found guilty by a jury of their peers even upon the presumption of innocence. Do you know why people committed these crimes? I prefer a justice system that takes their background into account and takes steps to improve the lives of these people. A justice system that only punishes without addressing the underlying issues is not a good system. The fact that you are arguing that the US' system is unrivaled only shows your prejudice and arrogance.
    - lr4444lr 9y ago
      Sentencing takes into account the background. The law itself is blind, under which all are equal. You're saying you'd let off a murderer because he had a rough childhood or what now? I am not saying our system os unrivaled, I am saying I am content, even happy, to be subject to it over any other I know of. It is not incumbent on me to find a preferable one if I like it. It is on you as the critic to do so. I will consider it if you make a good case.
      - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
        Have you watched the documentary the 13th? It covers severe issues with the incarceration rate in the United States, for example, the high proportion of black people incarcerated for the same crimes white people are completely let go of or otherwise not charges. How the justice system is very selective on what laws to enforce along racial lines. Stop and frisk turned out to mean “stop all the black people exclusively and search them”. How people are pressured to take plea deals even though they may indeed be innocent. How the police have been known to literally plant evidence or incite violence within communities or protests to force arrests.
sergiosgc 9y ago
> America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well. That's pretty easy. The measure you are looking for is social mobility. Most of Europe is more socially mobile than the US. In layman terms, it's easier to climb from the poorest quintile to the richest quintile. It's the result of the free education and social safety net that Europe is famous for. If you really want a country, ironically in Denmark social mobility is double the score of the US' [https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-americ...]
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Social mobility is not what "land of opportunity means" it's not meant to be an equal society in the normal sense. It's meant to be a society with opportunities. With regards to Denmark. When you look a little deeper in the numbers it's not actually true. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-american-dream-isnt-alive-in-denmark/494141/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-ame...
  - donkeyd 9y ago
    I think you misunderstand what Social Mobility is, Wikipedia says it's: > the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to one's current social location within a given society. Which would be exactly what people would call opportunities. Social mobility is not at all aimed at fixed equality. It's about being provided equal opportunities, for example by having good, free, public education. In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt. This leads to low social mobility, since the rich have a better chance at getting a degree than the poor do.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      No, I understand very well what it means. The land of opportunity isn't the same as social mobility and isn't meant to be the same either. You don't come to the US because of social mobility, you come here to improve your current situation and relatively, the US provides in spades compared to going to many European countries where you are stuck in some social welfare system and will never actually be able to move out of it. The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for the opportunity. The ability to break out of your social heritage isn't better in Denmark in any meaningful way. It's a common misconception but was debunked by ex. the Rockwool Foundation who found that Despite free education people were still ending up doing the same as their parents no matter the US or Denmark.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
donkeyd 9y ago
> still protect your rights as well There are few western countries that are as bad at protecting rights as the US. See: - Guantanamo Bay, where people are held indefinitely without trial - Abuse of civil forfeiture - Mass surveilance - Cops not being sentenced after needless shootings - Gerrymandering messing with the will of the people - Private companies often being more important than the public interest I could keep going, because there's plenty where that came from. It all depends on which rights you mean though, because the right to bear arms has indeed been well protected in the US (which isn't really considered a right anywhere else in the western world though).
- pjc50 9y ago
  The US has also failed to ratify the UN convention on Rights of the Child.
  - refurb 9y ago
    That's because the UN is nothing more than a feel-good body that gives strongly wording condemnations while people die.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    The UN isn't exactly something to hold as a beacon for anything besides spending a lot of money on practically nothing.
    - FireBeyond 9y ago
      In which case, where is the harm? "Children have the rights to: - Protection (e.g., from abuse, exploitation and harmful substances) - Provision (e.g., for education, health care and an adequate standard of living) - Participation (e.g., listening to children’s views and respecting their evolving capacities) - Specific protections and provisions for vulnerable populations such as Aboriginal children and children with disabilities"
      - ThomPete 9y ago
LV-426 9y ago
> You are missing a very important point which is that the US is a country of immigration and of different states the US is a very very very big country. And yet not even the biggest country in North America, an entire continent of immigration; the only difference between the people in what is now the USA and what is now Canada was the degree of loyalism to the British. > America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well. For that not to be just an empty slogan you'd have to explain what you mean by "opportunity" and "rights", to which races and genders those opportunities and rights have historically applied to in actuality, and how you think every other country suppresses or represses those rights or opportunities. > So the country is build on tough women and men. The USA was "built" (leaving aside how) by, among others, Danes, Dutch and Germans. I don't understand how they suddenly became tougher, just by stepping on a boat. Edit: and there goes the autodownvote bot, within not even enough time to read this post.
- weberc2 9y ago
  > I don't understand how they suddenly became tougher, just by stepping on a boat. I don't understand the OP's point, but "selection bias" is why many immigrant populations out-perform their counterparts back home. The folks who are willing to strike out are necessarily more intrepid.
  - LV-426 9y ago
    But not north of the 49th parallel?
    - weberc2 9y ago
      I didn't make that claim.
  - spiderfarmer 9y ago
    Willing and able
- ThomPete 9y ago

spiderfarmer 9y ago

The US is a big country with different states, but so is the EU. The policies of Holland, Denmark or Germany could definately work in the US, if only the people developed a different stance on criminal behavior, healthcare, guns and taxes, America is the land of opportunity for some people. There are a lot of other countries with a lot of opportunities and freedom. More than 2 million people are incarcerated in the US right now. Where's the freedom in that? America is very egoistic and hard country, built on the lives poor people who were left behind by their fellow countrymen. With their stance on criminal behavior, healthcare, guns and taxes, the people in the US are definately more egoistic than people in more social democracies.

ThomPete 9y ago
You are confusing things here. Incarceration has nothing to do with what we are talking about. No one ever said the US is perfect. We are talking about whether 1) you can apply scandinavian style healthcare to the us (you can't) and whether the US provides more opportunities than other places (it still does) It's not equal and it's not trying to be equal either. EU isn't big geographically compared to the US and it's not as sparsely populated as the US is. That's what I mean with big. Yes, America is the land of opportunity for some. I don't think we were debating obvious truths here. The point is that America does, in fact, provide much more opportunities. That doesn't mean everyone is going to make it. That's never been the point about that expression anyway. The US isn't more selfish if we actually look at how many volunteer in the US that alone would show that it's not that simple.
- deadbunny 9y ago
  > We are talking about whether 1) you can apply scandinavian style healthcare to the us (you can't) You keep repeating this throughout the thread without giving any actual arguments why. "Because we're not Scandinavia" is not a reason.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    You should read a little more careful what I write then. I do explain it.
lr4444lr 9y ago
Do you know why those people are incarcerated? They broke laws, and they were found guilty by a jury of their peers even upon the presumption of innocence. If charged with a given imprisonable offense, under what other country's court system would you prefer to be tried?
- spiderfarmer 9y ago
  They broke laws, and they were found guilty by a jury of their peers even upon the presumption of innocence. Do you know why people committed these crimes? I prefer a justice system that takes their background into account and takes steps to improve the lives of these people. A justice system that only punishes without addressing the underlying issues is not a good system. The fact that you are arguing that the US' system is unrivaled only shows your prejudice and arrogance.
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    Sentencing takes into account the background. The law itself is blind, under which all are equal. You're saying you'd let off a murderer because he had a rough childhood or what now? I am not saying our system os unrivaled, I am saying I am content, even happy, to be subject to it over any other I know of. It is not incumbent on me to find a preferable one if I like it. It is on you as the critic to do so. I will consider it if you make a good case.
    - SolaceQuantum 9y ago
      Have you watched the documentary the 13th? It covers severe issues with the incarceration rate in the United States, for example, the high proportion of black people incarcerated for the same crimes white people are completely let go of or otherwise not charges. How the justice system is very selective on what laws to enforce along racial lines. Stop and frisk turned out to mean “stop all the black people exclusively and search them”. How people are pressured to take plea deals even though they may indeed be innocent. How the police have been known to literally plant evidence or incite violence within communities or protests to force arrests.

sergiosgc 9y ago

> America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well. That's pretty easy. The measure you are looking for is social mobility. Most of Europe is more socially mobile than the US. In layman terms, it's easier to climb from the poorest quintile to the richest quintile. It's the result of the free education and social safety net that Europe is famous for. If you really want a country, ironically in Denmark social mobility is double the score of the US' [https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-americ...]

ThomPete 9y ago
Social mobility is not what "land of opportunity means" it's not meant to be an equal society in the normal sense. It's meant to be a society with opportunities. With regards to Denmark. When you look a little deeper in the numbers it's not actually true. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-american-dream-isnt-alive-in-denmark/494141/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/08/the-ame...
- donkeyd 9y ago
  I think you misunderstand what Social Mobility is, Wikipedia says it's: > the movement of individuals, families, households, or other categories of people within or between social strata in a society. It is a change in social status relative to one's current social location within a given society. Which would be exactly what people would call opportunities. Social mobility is not at all aimed at fixed equality. It's about being provided equal opportunities, for example by having good, free, public education. In the US, if your parents can't pay for your university degree, you need to either get lucky and get some kind of scholarship or go a couple 100k into debt. This leads to low social mobility, since the rich have a better chance at getting a degree than the poor do.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    No, I understand very well what it means. The land of opportunity isn't the same as social mobility and isn't meant to be the same either. You don't come to the US because of social mobility, you come here to improve your current situation and relatively, the US provides in spades compared to going to many European countries where you are stuck in some social welfare system and will never actually be able to move out of it. The European welfare system is great for equality but it doesn't do much for the opportunity. The ability to break out of your social heritage isn't better in Denmark in any meaningful way. It's a common misconception but was debunked by ex. the Rockwool Foundation who found that Despite free education people were still ending up doing the same as their parents no matter the US or Denmark.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

donkeyd 9y ago

> still protect your rights as well There are few western countries that are as bad at protecting rights as the US. See: - Guantanamo Bay, where people are held indefinitely without trial - Abuse of civil forfeiture - Mass surveilance - Cops not being sentenced after needless shootings - Gerrymandering messing with the will of the people - Private companies often being more important than the public interest I could keep going, because there's plenty where that came from. It all depends on which rights you mean though, because the right to bear arms has indeed been well protected in the US (which isn't really considered a right anywhere else in the western world though).

pjc50 9y ago
The US has also failed to ratify the UN convention on Rights of the Child.
- refurb 9y ago
  That's because the UN is nothing more than a feel-good body that gives strongly wording condemnations while people die.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  The UN isn't exactly something to hold as a beacon for anything besides spending a lot of money on practically nothing.
  - FireBeyond 9y ago
    In which case, where is the harm? "Children have the rights to: - Protection (e.g., from abuse, exploitation and harmful substances) - Provision (e.g., for education, health care and an adequate standard of living) - Participation (e.g., listening to children’s views and respecting their evolving capacities) - Specific protections and provisions for vulnerable populations such as Aboriginal children and children with disabilities"
    - ThomPete 9y ago

LV-426 9y ago

> You are missing a very important point which is that the US is a country of immigration and of different states the US is a very very very big country. And yet not even the biggest country in North America, an entire continent of immigration; the only difference between the people in what is now the USA and what is now Canada was the degree of loyalism to the British. > America IS the land of opportunity and I would challenge you to find any other country which provides better opportunity and still protect your rights as well. For that not to be just an empty slogan you'd have to explain what you mean by "opportunity" and "rights", to which races and genders those opportunities and rights have historically applied to in actuality, and how you think every other country suppresses or represses those rights or opportunities. > So the country is build on tough women and men. The USA was "built" (leaving aside how) by, among others, Danes, Dutch and Germans. I don't understand how they suddenly became tougher, just by stepping on a boat. Edit: and there goes the autodownvote bot, within not even enough time to read this post.

weberc2 9y ago
> I don't understand how they suddenly became tougher, just by stepping on a boat. I don't understand the OP's point, but "selection bias" is why many immigrant populations out-perform their counterparts back home. The folks who are willing to strike out are necessarily more intrepid.
- LV-426 9y ago
  But not north of the 49th parallel?
  - weberc2 9y ago
    I didn't make that claim.
- spiderfarmer 9y ago
  Willing and able
ThomPete 9y ago