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The NHS has been failing for at least the last 25 years. We've had labour, lib-dem/con and conservative Governments and countless health ministers in all this

by dazc 9y ago

The NHS has been failing for at least the last 25 years. We've had labour, lib-dem/con and conservative Governments and countless health ministers in all this time. I fail to see the political connection?

pjc50 9y ago
That's an awfully long time to be in a state of "failing"? Can we quantify what we mean by "failing" here?
- dazc 9y ago
  'Can we quantify what we mean by "failing" here?' 'In decline' maybe? The NHS has been in some crisis or another for all of these years.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    No, it hasn't. Standards have got considerably worse in many measures recently. When people talk about the winter crisis it's differently to previous winter crises -- A&Es turning away ambos because the corridors are full isn't something that used to happen. In the past Ambos have been turned away, but that's because the beds were full. Those A&Es still had emergency capacity (in the corridors).
    - dazc 9y ago
      'A&Es turning away ambos because the corridors are full isn't something that used to happen.' 'In the past Ambos have been turned away, but that's because the beds were full...' And before this, what? Ambos queuing up, patients treated in ambos, patients waiting a long time for ambos, etc, etc. You have to go a long way back to find a time when everything was working as it should be.
      - DanBC 9y ago
        Before this an A&E would tell an Ambo that the beds are full, and to go to a different hospital. This leaves some spare in the system for when things are very busy - you put people in corridors. But now all the corridors are full. We've had A&Es declare major incidents. We've even seen, and I don't think we've seen it before, triage on resus. That alone is a big flag that things are fucked. > And before this, what? Ambos queuing up, patients treated in ambos, patients waiting a long time for ambos, etc, et Right, you think we'll go from fully working NHS to fully broken NHS in the blink of an eye. These things you mention were fixed once, and they've been getting steadily worse (as the Conservatives de-funded social care, and privatised drug & alcohol services, and cut MH services, and defunded the rest of the NHS) - the crisis started a few years ago, and is building year on year.
        dazc 9y ago
        'These things you mention were fixed once, and they've been getting steadily worse...' OK, it was the Conservatives what done it. I get it.
        DanBC 9y ago
        Yes, clearly and unambiguously the Conservatives have destroyed the NHS. I said this in my first post. Here, for example, is a chart of A&E 4 hour breeches: https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status/948953869509423108 https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status/948953869509423108
        dazc 9y ago
        They haven't destroyed the NHS since the NHS still exists. However, this aside, do you have any ideas regarding turning around this perceived calamity? Personally, I think the solution is politically unpalatable but I am not so narrow minded as to think there may be a solution that doesn't simply resort to giving doctors and nurses a bonanza pay rise.
deadbunny 9y ago
> The NHS has been failing for at least the last 25 years. You sound like the Daily Mail. If it's been "failing" for a quarter of a century why is it always ranked as one of the best health services in the world? Yes it has it's problems but it far from failing. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/nhs-performance https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care... http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/files/publications/fund-report/2017/jul/schneider_mirror_mirror_2017.pdf#page=5 http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/files/publications/f... [PDF warning] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-t... http://www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/187348?path=/bmj/343/7826/Feature.full.pdf http://www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/187348?path=/bmj/343/7826... [PDF warning]
- TheBeardKing 9y ago
  Could the rating organizations be biased to weigh disseminated coverage and care more than individual quality of care? Just a question, since I seem to get that impression these types of quality of life surveys. As a USer with good insurance, it's a hard pill to swallow to trade next day doctor appointments, same day urgent care (not ER) with very short waits, and quick schedules for surgical procedures for the broader coverage other countries offer with more rationed care.
  - deadbunny 9y ago
    Purely anecdotal but I've never had a problem getting a GP (Doctor) appointment for the next day (and get same day if they're not busy). Not sure what would be urgent enough to warrant same day but not ER? That said I am fairly healthy and can probably count the number of doctor visits in the last 10 years on one hand so I may have just been lucky in my limited experiences.

by dazc 9y ago

pjc50 9y ago

That's an awfully long time to be in a state of "failing"? Can we quantify what we mean by "failing" here?

dazc 9y ago
'Can we quantify what we mean by "failing" here?' 'In decline' maybe? The NHS has been in some crisis or another for all of these years.
- DanBC 9y ago
  No, it hasn't. Standards have got considerably worse in many measures recently. When people talk about the winter crisis it's differently to previous winter crises -- A&Es turning away ambos because the corridors are full isn't something that used to happen. In the past Ambos have been turned away, but that's because the beds were full. Those A&Es still had emergency capacity (in the corridors).
  - dazc 9y ago
    'A&Es turning away ambos because the corridors are full isn't something that used to happen.' 'In the past Ambos have been turned away, but that's because the beds were full...' And before this, what? Ambos queuing up, patients treated in ambos, patients waiting a long time for ambos, etc, etc. You have to go a long way back to find a time when everything was working as it should be.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      Before this an A&E would tell an Ambo that the beds are full, and to go to a different hospital. This leaves some spare in the system for when things are very busy - you put people in corridors. But now all the corridors are full. We've had A&Es declare major incidents. We've even seen, and I don't think we've seen it before, triage on resus. That alone is a big flag that things are fucked. > And before this, what? Ambos queuing up, patients treated in ambos, patients waiting a long time for ambos, etc, et Right, you think we'll go from fully working NHS to fully broken NHS in the blink of an eye. These things you mention were fixed once, and they've been getting steadily worse (as the Conservatives de-funded social care, and privatised drug & alcohol services, and cut MH services, and defunded the rest of the NHS) - the crisis started a few years ago, and is building year on year.
      - dazc 9y ago
        'These things you mention were fixed once, and they've been getting steadily worse...' OK, it was the Conservatives what done it. I get it.
        DanBC 9y ago
        Yes, clearly and unambiguously the Conservatives have destroyed the NHS. I said this in my first post. Here, for example, is a chart of A&E 4 hour breeches: https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status/948953869509423108 https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status/948953869509423108
        dazc 9y ago
        They haven't destroyed the NHS since the NHS still exists. However, this aside, do you have any ideas regarding turning around this perceived calamity? Personally, I think the solution is politically unpalatable but I am not so narrow minded as to think there may be a solution that doesn't simply resort to giving doctors and nurses a bonanza pay rise.

deadbunny 9y ago

> The NHS has been failing for at least the last 25 years. You sound like the Daily Mail. If it's been "failing" for a quarter of a century why is it always ranked as one of the best health services in the world? Yes it has it's problems but it far from failing. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/nhs-performance https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care... http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/files/publications/fund-report/2017/jul/schneider_mirror_mirror_2017.pdf#page=5 http://www.commonwealthfund.org/~/media/files/publications/f... [PDF warning] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-t... http://www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/187348?path=/bmj/343/7826/Feature.full.pdf http://www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/187348?path=/bmj/343/7826... [PDF warning]

TheBeardKing 9y ago
Could the rating organizations be biased to weigh disseminated coverage and care more than individual quality of care? Just a question, since I seem to get that impression these types of quality of life surveys. As a USer with good insurance, it's a hard pill to swallow to trade next day doctor appointments, same day urgent care (not ER) with very short waits, and quick schedules for surgical procedures for the broader coverage other countries offer with more rationed care.
- deadbunny 9y ago
  Purely anecdotal but I've never had a problem getting a GP (Doctor) appointment for the next day (and get same day if they're not busy). Not sure what would be urgent enough to warrant same day but not ER? That said I am fairly healthy and can probably count the number of doctor visits in the last 10 years on one hand so I may have just been lucky in my limited experiences.