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Only "better" in the sense that tax withholding is, i.e. it hides just how much of your money the government seizes. A friend of mine has a print of a painting

Only "better" in the sense that tax withholding is, i.e. it hides just how much of your money the government seizes. A friend of mine has a print of a painting showing soldiers around a large container holding goods and money that citizens were being forced to pay in tribute. The central figure in the painting is a man--I think his family is with him. I don't remember whether the painter shows him actually putting something in the container or not, but he's looking daggers at those guarding the tribute and enforcing its collection. That look reflects how people should think of paying taxes, and things like VAT and tax withholding that lull the host into not realizing just how much he or she is being taken for need to go away.

mrarjen 9y ago
Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. If not, and a rich guy gets most of it just to get more rich then yea, I'd see why people would see this as a scam and criminal behavior.
- nybble41 9y ago
  > Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. That's part of it, but you also need to consider whether these are things the taxpayers would have chosen to purchase on their own, at that price. If that were true, however, then there would be no point in making it mandatory; people would purchase these things on their own. Ergo, taxes, if they have any point at all, must only exist to purchase things taxpayers would not choose on their own, at least not at the prices they are forced to pay. Depriving others of their property is "criminal behavior" even if the thief provides something the thief considers valuable in return. The key point is not whether you received something in exchange, but rather whether you gave your consent.
ZeroGravitas 9y ago
Or alternatively, "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization" and some would consider pointless wastes of time as a tax too, just one that benefits no-one. Apparently the anti-tax element of the Republicans are responsible for taxes in the US being much harder to file than in other countries, because they follow your principle that paying taxes should also inconvenience people in an attempt to make them angry about the whole thing. Presumably they're not supposed to find out who was responsible for making them angry and wasting their time with pointless busywork.
- sharemywin 9y ago
  If the government doesn't make sense look to some group with a powerful lobby trying to save jobs or kids: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...
- nybble41 9y ago
  > "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization" Taxes are never about what YOU want to pay; no one is stopping you from "buying civilization" with your own money, if that is what you want. Rather, taxes are all about what you can make OTHER people pay for your "civilization".
  - Firadeoclus 9y ago
    Except you can't "buy civilization" as an individual. Civilization is a system of participation and, yes, enforcement of rules.
    - nybble41 9y ago
      The so-called "civilization" which taxes buy is a system of forced participation and oppression, devoid of civility, destructive to society, and morally indefensible. All the things that taxes pay for can be purchased by private individuals and organizations working together of their own free will, and not because they are forced to do so. That is true civilization: civilized people cooperating to build a society where civilized, voluntary interaction, not force, is the norm.
      - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
        Can you name a system, even a theoretical one, which doesn't meet your anti-criteria of being "forced participation and oppression .. morally indefensible". I don't think you can, which renders your criticisms hollow. Human beings purchasing things from each other with no legal system? With no property rights? Is this system global, and if not then how do you interact with other nations with their own systems. None of this can exist without someone with a big stick to keep people in line.

mrarjen 9y ago

Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. If not, and a rich guy gets most of it just to get more rich then yea, I'd see why people would see this as a scam and criminal behavior.

nybble41 9y ago
> Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. That's part of it, but you also need to consider whether these are things the taxpayers would have chosen to purchase on their own, at that price. If that were true, however, then there would be no point in making it mandatory; people would purchase these things on their own. Ergo, taxes, if they have any point at all, must only exist to purchase things taxpayers would not choose on their own, at least not at the prices they are forced to pay. Depriving others of their property is "criminal behavior" even if the thief provides something the thief considers valuable in return. The key point is not whether you received something in exchange, but rather whether you gave your consent.

ZeroGravitas 9y ago

Or alternatively, "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization" and some would consider pointless wastes of time as a tax too, just one that benefits no-one. Apparently the anti-tax element of the Republicans are responsible for taxes in the US being much harder to file than in other countries, because they follow your principle that paying taxes should also inconvenience people in an attempt to make them angry about the whole thing. Presumably they're not supposed to find out who was responsible for making them angry and wasting their time with pointless busywork.

sharemywin 9y ago
If the government doesn't make sense look to some group with a powerful lobby trying to save jobs or kids: https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-fre...
nybble41 9y ago
> "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization" Taxes are never about what YOU want to pay; no one is stopping you from "buying civilization" with your own money, if that is what you want. Rather, taxes are all about what you can make OTHER people pay for your "civilization".
- Firadeoclus 9y ago
  Except you can't "buy civilization" as an individual. Civilization is a system of participation and, yes, enforcement of rules.
  - nybble41 9y ago
    The so-called "civilization" which taxes buy is a system of forced participation and oppression, devoid of civility, destructive to society, and morally indefensible. All the things that taxes pay for can be purchased by private individuals and organizations working together of their own free will, and not because they are forced to do so. That is true civilization: civilized people cooperating to build a society where civilized, voluntary interaction, not force, is the norm.
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      Can you name a system, even a theoretical one, which doesn't meet your anti-criteria of being "forced participation and oppression .. morally indefensible". I don't think you can, which renders your criticisms hollow. Human beings purchasing things from each other with no legal system? With no property rights? Is this system global, and if not then how do you interact with other nations with their own systems. None of this can exist without someone with a big stick to keep people in line.