13 ms·

The funny thing is that, per capita, many european countries has more billionaires than the US. That's saying something about "The American Dream" imo. What I

The funny thing is that, per capita, many european countries has more billionaires than the US. That's saying something about "The American Dream" imo. What I meant is that the billionaires maybe doesn't need to uphold the status quo?

spiderfarmer 9y ago
And that taxes aren't as bad as they think.
- mrarjen 9y ago
  Taxes would be a whole of a lot better if they didn't let you pick all the products and then during payment add the % of tax on top of it! Just include it in the price!
  - raquo 9y ago
    I disagree. In Russia an average employed person never even has to file income tax declaration, and any local sales taxes are included in the final price. People don't even know how much they're taxed. All they know is that income tax is 13%, they don't realize how many other taxes are added up to both their salary and the products they buy. As much as the mental overhead of expecting a sales tax on checkout annoys me, I'll suffer through it so that everyone has a constant reminder that the government is taking its cut.
    - mrarjen 9y ago
      It will show in details regarding the price/payment here (Netherlands) Beats getting unexpected extra costs suddenly added for me personally... and in Amerika when eating out you even have to pay part of the salary for the staff afterwards...
    - tobylane 9y ago
      How much of what you pay for gas is taxes deducted at various levels? If it's foreign oil did it pay other governments, like the Panama or Suez Canal? Knowing what the take is for what you buy in person is such a tiny portion of the bigger picture. And with the county/state/federal variations how closely do you keep track of who is ripping you off and who is using the money well?
  - jejones3141 9y ago
    Only "better" in the sense that tax withholding is, i.e. it hides just how much of your money the government seizes. A friend of mine has a print of a painting showing soldiers around a large container holding goods and money that citizens were being forced to pay in tribute. The central figure in the painting is a man--I think his family is with him. I don't remember whether the painter shows him actually putting something in the container or not, but he's looking daggers at those guarding the tribute and enforcing its collection. That look reflects how people should think of paying taxes, and things like VAT and tax withholding that lull the host into not realizing just how much he or she is being taken for need to go away.
    - mrarjen 9y ago
      Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. If not, and a rich guy gets most of it just to get more rich then yea, I'd see why people would see this as a scam and criminal behavior.
      - nybble41 9y ago
        > Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. That's part of it, but you also need to consider whether these are things the taxpayers would have chosen to purchase on their own, at that price. If that were true, however, then there would be no point in making it mandatory; people would purchase these things on their own. Ergo, taxes, if they have any point at all, must only exist to purchase things taxpayers would not choose on their own, at least not at the prices they are forced to pay. Depriving others of their property is "criminal behavior" even if the thief provides something the thief considers valuable in return. The key point is not whether you received something in exchange, but rather whether you gave your consent.
    - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
      Or alternatively, "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization" and some would consider pointless wastes of time as a tax too, just one that benefits no-one. Apparently the anti-tax element of the Republicans are responsible for taxes in the US being much harder to file than in other countries, because they follow your principle that paying taxes should also inconvenience people in an attempt to make them angry about the whole thing. Presumably they're not supposed to find out who was responsible for making them angry and wasting their time with pointless busywork.
dagw 9y ago
per capita, many european countries has more billionaires than the US. I wouldn't say 'many'. The 'top' countries are places like Iceland, Guernsey, Monaco and Cypress which are skewed due to their tiny populations. The only country which can realistically 'compete' in this metric are Norway, Sweden and Switzerland. That being said, if we're talking "The American Dream" then simply measuring the number of billionaires isn't a useful metric. We should really focus on self made billionaires rather than people who became billionaires due to inheritance. On that metric I believe the US still leads the pack.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > Guernsey, Monaco and Cyprus Tax havens. The billionaires themselves are usually "citizens of the world" who live in hotels or a series of holiday homes. Countries don't "have" billionaires in any kind of possessive sense any more. Instead they compete in the hope that billionaires will pass through and trickle down some wealth.
- robbiep 9y ago
  Whilst the US has more self-made billionaires than Europe [0] the US has lesser social mobility than Europe (less the UK), rendering the idea of 'the American dream' more a dream than a possibility [1, 2] Healthcare is a price-inelastic good. Not having some form of pricing controls is a licence to rip the heart out of a population. [0] https://howmuch.net/articles/billionaires-map https://howmuch.net/articles/billionaires-map [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_econ...
  - true_religion 9y ago
    The article concludes the usa has lower social mobility simply because the very rich, are now much richer thus it is harder to move to that income group.
- staticelf 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

spiderfarmer 9y ago

And that taxes aren't as bad as they think.

mrarjen 9y ago
Taxes would be a whole of a lot better if they didn't let you pick all the products and then during payment add the % of tax on top of it! Just include it in the price!
- raquo 9y ago
  I disagree. In Russia an average employed person never even has to file income tax declaration, and any local sales taxes are included in the final price. People don't even know how much they're taxed. All they know is that income tax is 13%, they don't realize how many other taxes are added up to both their salary and the products they buy. As much as the mental overhead of expecting a sales tax on checkout annoys me, I'll suffer through it so that everyone has a constant reminder that the government is taking its cut.
  - mrarjen 9y ago
    It will show in details regarding the price/payment here (Netherlands) Beats getting unexpected extra costs suddenly added for me personally... and in Amerika when eating out you even have to pay part of the salary for the staff afterwards...
  - tobylane 9y ago
    How much of what you pay for gas is taxes deducted at various levels? If it's foreign oil did it pay other governments, like the Panama or Suez Canal? Knowing what the take is for what you buy in person is such a tiny portion of the bigger picture. And with the county/state/federal variations how closely do you keep track of who is ripping you off and who is using the money well?
- jejones3141 9y ago
  Only "better" in the sense that tax withholding is, i.e. it hides just how much of your money the government seizes. A friend of mine has a print of a painting showing soldiers around a large container holding goods and money that citizens were being forced to pay in tribute. The central figure in the painting is a man--I think his family is with him. I don't remember whether the painter shows him actually putting something in the container or not, but he's looking daggers at those guarding the tribute and enforcing its collection. That look reflects how people should think of paying taxes, and things like VAT and tax withholding that lull the host into not realizing just how much he or she is being taken for need to go away.
  - mrarjen 9y ago
    Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. If not, and a rich guy gets most of it just to get more rich then yea, I'd see why people would see this as a scam and criminal behavior.
    - nybble41 9y ago
      > Depends if the "tribute" or taxes payed are actually returning to the people in the form of services like roads or schools, fire department all those things. That's part of it, but you also need to consider whether these are things the taxpayers would have chosen to purchase on their own, at that price. If that were true, however, then there would be no point in making it mandatory; people would purchase these things on their own. Ergo, taxes, if they have any point at all, must only exist to purchase things taxpayers would not choose on their own, at least not at the prices they are forced to pay. Depriving others of their property is "criminal behavior" even if the thief provides something the thief considers valuable in return. The key point is not whether you received something in exchange, but rather whether you gave your consent.
  - ZeroGravitas 9y ago
    Or alternatively, "I like to pay taxes. With them I buy civilization" and some would consider pointless wastes of time as a tax too, just one that benefits no-one. Apparently the anti-tax element of the Republicans are responsible for taxes in the US being much harder to file than in other countries, because they follow your principle that paying taxes should also inconvenience people in an attempt to make them angry about the whole thing. Presumably they're not supposed to find out who was responsible for making them angry and wasting their time with pointless busywork.

dagw 9y ago

per capita, many european countries has more billionaires than the US. I wouldn't say 'many'. The 'top' countries are places like Iceland, Guernsey, Monaco and Cypress which are skewed due to their tiny populations. The only country which can realistically 'compete' in this metric are Norway, Sweden and Switzerland. That being said, if we're talking "The American Dream" then simply measuring the number of billionaires isn't a useful metric. We should really focus on self made billionaires rather than people who became billionaires due to inheritance. On that metric I believe the US still leads the pack.

pjc50 9y ago
> Guernsey, Monaco and Cyprus Tax havens. The billionaires themselves are usually "citizens of the world" who live in hotels or a series of holiday homes. Countries don't "have" billionaires in any kind of possessive sense any more. Instead they compete in the hope that billionaires will pass through and trickle down some wealth.
robbiep 9y ago
Whilst the US has more self-made billionaires than Europe [0] the US has lesser social mobility than Europe (less the UK), rendering the idea of 'the American dream' more a dream than a possibility [1, 2] Healthcare is a price-inelastic good. Not having some form of pricing controls is a licence to rip the heart out of a population. [0] https://howmuch.net/articles/billionaires-map https://howmuch.net/articles/billionaires-map [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-mobility-america/491240/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-... [2] https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_econ...
- true_religion 9y ago
  The article concludes the usa has lower social mobility simply because the very rich, are now much richer thus it is harder to move to that income group.
staticelf 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]