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No one cares about government pay scales. You don't have to work FOR the government to work for the government. Many top NSA specialists work for contractor fir

by speby 9y ago

No one cares about government pay scales. You don't have to work FOR the government to work for the government. Many top NSA specialists work for contractor firms and do earn tremendous compensation from their employers. Those employers contract with our government for totally uncapped contract sums. Obviously the contracts have to be reviewed for budget and capex limitations but otherwise no such thing as a salary cap would be imposed on the various "consultants" or "contractors" coming in from a vendor.

vonmoltke 9y ago
> Those employers contract with our government for totally uncapped contract sums. No, they don't. Billing rates are fixed based on the experience and education levels of the people working on the contract. If the government says they won't pay more than, say, $250/hour for a security expert that is all the contractor is going to get, and that in turn limits the amount the contractor can make. Pay at government contractors is better than the government itself, but it is still shit compared to the rest of the tech industry. This is particularly true when you look at variable compensation (which is virtually nonexistent in government contractor land).
- irishcoffee 9y ago
  You have glossed over and simplified how contracts and billing rates work, your synopsis is not accurate.
  - mturmon 9y ago
    You have been down voted, but your observation is correct, and the parent comment is misleading as to rates. Source: I’m a government contractor and line manager.
    - vonmoltke 9y ago
      I worked for government contractors for almost 15 years (until October 2016) and participated in proposal efforts ranging from $750k SBIRs to a $1B+ multi-year prime contract for a radar system. Every one had established billing rates for labor, based on the type of employee rendering the labor. How is this misleading?
      - mturmon 9y ago
        It's misleading because, for experienced + well-qualified people, the upper ranges of the established rates are rather high, and therefore don't significantly constrain the hourly rates of those people. So for instance, if, within a given discipline like "security", there are 6 experience levels (1 = fresh-out undergrad, 6 = most senior), and within those, 4 maturity levels (20th thru 80th percentile, say), then the 80th percentile of, say, level 5, will be a very high rate. Because it's HN, and the comments above were referring to boutique security consultants ("top NSA specialists work[ing] for contractor firms"), I assumed that's who we're talking about. Cybersecurity, especially, has become a domain where institutional constraints have been lifted in the last few years - it requires less on-paper experience to get up to the "level 5" above. On the other hand, and in agreement with your comment, the aggregate labor rate for a large contract (I'm sure $1B qualifies) could not be too out of whack with industry norms, and this would be a significant constraint on rates.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    How have I done so? Part of the contract negotiations on a time and materials contract concerns the billing rates for the personnel who will perform on the contract. The government has a schedule of what it is willing to pay for certain domain expertise and levels of experience.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  That’s just one type of consulting. If you pay T&M for a guy in GSA schedule or whatever, they’ll bill him as a Architect level 12 at $250/hr. Or a higher scale for a different position. The employee’s compensation is more about the number of pimps^H subcontractors between him and the contract. Another example are service based contracts where the government pays a fixed price for delivery of one or more outputs. Those outputs might just happen to align with what particular employees do. These things are generally aligned to make the contractor more money vs the employee. But the employees are well compensated, and the overall deal is good enough that they don’t lose a lot of talent.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    > That’s just one type of consulting. If you pay T&M for a guy in GSA schedule or whatever, they’ll bill him as a Architect level 12 at $250/hr. Or a higher scale for a different position. I'm not talking about consulting, I'm talking about standard T&M contracts. There is a limit to how much an individual can be billed out for, which by necessity limits their compensation. As for what people are billed at, the government auditors require proof of credentials and experience. > Another example are service based contracts where the government pays a fixed price for delivery of one or more outputs. Those outputs might just happen to align with what particular employees do. These things are generally aligned to make the contractor more money vs the employee. But the employees are well compensated, and the overall deal is good enough that they don’t lose a lot of talent. This generally happens at small contractors for small contracts. Contracts so small the big boys wouldn't even notice their existence (assuming they even qualify to bid). The vast majority of people working for government contractors are not in this position.
- qaq 9y ago
  Knowing the billing rates of some of the companies they subcontract too for IR there is close to 0 chance they would take less than 500/hour as they have to turn away clients even offering higher rates due to serious shortage IR talent.
- GlenTheMachine 9y ago
  Typically, to be in any sort of management position you have to be a civil servant. To be a PI or run your own research program you have to be a civil servant. Contractors are great, but there are a number of things vital to government agencies that they cannot legally do. Which means that your managers are still getting paid civil servant wages, no matter how well paid the contractors working under them are. Consider how well run a tech firm would be if it paid less and less competitive salaries the higher up in management you go.
- ben_w 9y ago
  Assuming $250/hr is a real example, that’s $470k/year. Is that really a problem? (Assuming 40h per week, 47 weeks per year because systematic staff shortage and EU-duration holidays because that’s what I’m used to).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Xorlev 9y ago
    Depends, for a leader in their field that's on the low end. But, I understood $250/hr to be what the firm received -- usually contractors don't get nearly that much, but I don't have any experience with government contractors.
    - gigl 9y ago
      From my experience, you're dead on for the majority of "staff augmentation" full time contracts that come from tech-related consulting+contracting firms. Most organizations I've been around (East Coast, DC region) charge around $250/hr to big government, and the people they assign make anywhere from $40-$125/hr depending on the specifics of their role.
  - DontGiveTwoFlux 9y ago
    The contracting company takes a significant cut of that.
    - MrFoof 9y ago
      For hard numbers, 80% markup of wages paid out is typical (at least for large contingency recruiters and IT contractors), though it can be higher. $250/hr billed usually results in $125-140/hr in the contractor's pocket, and $110-125/hr for the place that sent them out.
      - fergie 9y ago
        In my experience its about 30%(ish) to the worker gross, which means that the worker gets about 20% after tax. It can be slightly higher or lower depending on the situation.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- fergie 9y ago
  I recently got roped into one of Palantir's recruitment events (because I am a pathetic sucker for free beer), and they were making a really big deal of how they billed by _outcome_ rather than _time_. At the time I just thought that they were trying to differentiate themselves from Accenture/KPMG/Deloitte/etc. but I see now that billing by outcome is also a nice way to get around billing caps on hourly rates.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    I can't speak to Palantir's contracts but the government generally does not allow billing bespoke development efforts by outcome. Companies don't get to just decide how they are going to bill the government, at least not if they want the government to actually buy.
ggg9990 9y ago
Like Edward Snowden's $200k salary from Booz Allen Hamilton.
- lawnchair_larry 9y ago
  Which didn't exist. BAH said his salary was actually 122k. I know of a few BAH salaries, likely more advanced than his, and they are much closer to that number.
  - qaq 9y ago
    In what area?
  - sgt 9y ago
    Maybe Snowden was factoring in bonuses and and other incentives?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
metaphor 9y ago
> No one cares about government pay scales. NSA leadership has clearly acknowledged the impediment: The big change these days is there’s a supply-demand imbalance between the outside and the inside Total compensation for [SV and other cities that tech start-ups call home] jobs can reach $200,000 or more, meaning even relatively junior cyber professionals in the industry can make more than top officials at the NSA.

by speby 9y ago

vonmoltke 9y ago

> Those employers contract with our government for totally uncapped contract sums. No, they don't. Billing rates are fixed based on the experience and education levels of the people working on the contract. If the government says they won't pay more than, say, $250/hour for a security expert that is all the contractor is going to get, and that in turn limits the amount the contractor can make. Pay at government contractors is better than the government itself, but it is still shit compared to the rest of the tech industry. This is particularly true when you look at variable compensation (which is virtually nonexistent in government contractor land).

irishcoffee 9y ago
You have glossed over and simplified how contracts and billing rates work, your synopsis is not accurate.
- mturmon 9y ago
  You have been down voted, but your observation is correct, and the parent comment is misleading as to rates. Source: I’m a government contractor and line manager.
  - vonmoltke 9y ago
    I worked for government contractors for almost 15 years (until October 2016) and participated in proposal efforts ranging from $750k SBIRs to a $1B+ multi-year prime contract for a radar system. Every one had established billing rates for labor, based on the type of employee rendering the labor. How is this misleading?
    - mturmon 9y ago
      It's misleading because, for experienced + well-qualified people, the upper ranges of the established rates are rather high, and therefore don't significantly constrain the hourly rates of those people. So for instance, if, within a given discipline like "security", there are 6 experience levels (1 = fresh-out undergrad, 6 = most senior), and within those, 4 maturity levels (20th thru 80th percentile, say), then the 80th percentile of, say, level 5, will be a very high rate. Because it's HN, and the comments above were referring to boutique security consultants ("top NSA specialists work[ing] for contractor firms"), I assumed that's who we're talking about. Cybersecurity, especially, has become a domain where institutional constraints have been lifted in the last few years - it requires less on-paper experience to get up to the "level 5" above. On the other hand, and in agreement with your comment, the aggregate labor rate for a large contract (I'm sure $1B qualifies) could not be too out of whack with industry norms, and this would be a significant constraint on rates.
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  How have I done so? Part of the contract negotiations on a time and materials contract concerns the billing rates for the personnel who will perform on the contract. The government has a schedule of what it is willing to pay for certain domain expertise and levels of experience.
Spooky23 9y ago
That’s just one type of consulting. If you pay T&M for a guy in GSA schedule or whatever, they’ll bill him as a Architect level 12 at $250/hr. Or a higher scale for a different position. The employee’s compensation is more about the number of pimps^H subcontractors between him and the contract. Another example are service based contracts where the government pays a fixed price for delivery of one or more outputs. Those outputs might just happen to align with what particular employees do. These things are generally aligned to make the contractor more money vs the employee. But the employees are well compensated, and the overall deal is good enough that they don’t lose a lot of talent.
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  > That’s just one type of consulting. If you pay T&M for a guy in GSA schedule or whatever, they’ll bill him as a Architect level 12 at $250/hr. Or a higher scale for a different position. I'm not talking about consulting, I'm talking about standard T&M contracts. There is a limit to how much an individual can be billed out for, which by necessity limits their compensation. As for what people are billed at, the government auditors require proof of credentials and experience. > Another example are service based contracts where the government pays a fixed price for delivery of one or more outputs. Those outputs might just happen to align with what particular employees do. These things are generally aligned to make the contractor more money vs the employee. But the employees are well compensated, and the overall deal is good enough that they don’t lose a lot of talent. This generally happens at small contractors for small contracts. Contracts so small the big boys wouldn't even notice their existence (assuming they even qualify to bid). The vast majority of people working for government contractors are not in this position.
qaq 9y ago
Knowing the billing rates of some of the companies they subcontract too for IR there is close to 0 chance they would take less than 500/hour as they have to turn away clients even offering higher rates due to serious shortage IR talent.
GlenTheMachine 9y ago
Typically, to be in any sort of management position you have to be a civil servant. To be a PI or run your own research program you have to be a civil servant. Contractors are great, but there are a number of things vital to government agencies that they cannot legally do. Which means that your managers are still getting paid civil servant wages, no matter how well paid the contractors working under them are. Consider how well run a tech firm would be if it paid less and less competitive salaries the higher up in management you go.
ben_w 9y ago
Assuming $250/hr is a real example, that’s $470k/year. Is that really a problem? (Assuming 40h per week, 47 weeks per year because systematic staff shortage and EU-duration holidays because that’s what I’m used to).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Xorlev 9y ago
  Depends, for a leader in their field that's on the low end. But, I understood $250/hr to be what the firm received -- usually contractors don't get nearly that much, but I don't have any experience with government contractors.
  - gigl 9y ago
    From my experience, you're dead on for the majority of "staff augmentation" full time contracts that come from tech-related consulting+contracting firms. Most organizations I've been around (East Coast, DC region) charge around $250/hr to big government, and the people they assign make anywhere from $40-$125/hr depending on the specifics of their role.
- DontGiveTwoFlux 9y ago
  The contracting company takes a significant cut of that.
  - MrFoof 9y ago
    For hard numbers, 80% markup of wages paid out is typical (at least for large contingency recruiters and IT contractors), though it can be higher. $250/hr billed usually results in $125-140/hr in the contractor's pocket, and $110-125/hr for the place that sent them out.
    - fergie 9y ago
      In my experience its about 30%(ish) to the worker gross, which means that the worker gets about 20% after tax. It can be slightly higher or lower depending on the situation.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fergie 9y ago
I recently got roped into one of Palantir's recruitment events (because I am a pathetic sucker for free beer), and they were making a really big deal of how they billed by _outcome_ rather than _time_. At the time I just thought that they were trying to differentiate themselves from Accenture/KPMG/Deloitte/etc. but I see now that billing by outcome is also a nice way to get around billing caps on hourly rates.
- vonmoltke 9y ago
  I can't speak to Palantir's contracts but the government generally does not allow billing bespoke development efforts by outcome. Companies don't get to just decide how they are going to bill the government, at least not if they want the government to actually buy.

ggg9990 9y ago

Like Edward Snowden's $200k salary from Booz Allen Hamilton.

lawnchair_larry 9y ago
Which didn't exist. BAH said his salary was actually 122k. I know of a few BAH salaries, likely more advanced than his, and they are much closer to that number.
- qaq 9y ago
  In what area?
- sgt 9y ago
  Maybe Snowden was factoring in bonuses and and other incentives?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

metaphor 9y ago

> No one cares about government pay scales. NSA leadership has clearly acknowledged the impediment: The big change these days is there’s a supply-demand imbalance between the outside and the inside Total compensation for [SV and other cities that tech start-ups call home] jobs can reach $200,000 or more, meaning even relatively junior cyber professionals in the industry can make more than top officials at the NSA.