9 ms·

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non

by qmalzp 9y ago

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non-militaristic culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. I honestly don't understand why someone would work for the NSA given the choice.

paloaltokid 9y ago
Some people are genuinely patriotic.
- 1001101 9y ago
  It's a requirement given the stringency of clearances. The article didn't touch on it, but since Binney/Snowden and revelations about the domestic focus, you may not have the same kind of recruitment/retention you would have otherwise in this demographic.
- mindslight 9y ago
  You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.
  - Codestare 9y ago
    He's not exiled? The US wants him back very much.
    - westmeal 9y ago
      (Presumably so they can kick his teeth in)
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      To be unfairly tried in a trial where he won't even be allowed to argue to the jury that his actions were justified.
  - prewett 9y ago
    Generally breaking the law and seeking to escape the consequences has always resulted in effective exile, throughout history. In fact, how could it not? Would you like the law to be suspended in this case, but not in the case of people leaking secrets to China? Where's the difference? Is it just that what you like should be an exception? You could argue it was patriotic to break the law, but working for the NSA hardly forced him to break the law, nor did it force him to avoid the consequences. He could have been like Rosa Parks who accepted the consequences. Admittedly, hers were smaller in magnitude, but there are other options than what Snowden took.
    - watwut 9y ago
      He did accepted the consequences. The consequence is his life now, quite literally. He has zero trust toward legal system as that is not designed to be fair. He his not willing to become martyr more than is necessary - and there is nothing wrong with that. Rosa Park consequences went well beyond being arrested for one night. I am pretty sure she would prefer if she had the option to escape them - she did not. Altrough she did eventually left the city, due to consequences imposed on her there.
    - mindslight 9y ago
      Talking about "the law" is a red herring. The NSA is in explicit violation of USG's founding charter, and yet it remains in comfortable operation. But more importantly, the concept of patriotism is orthogonal.
    - nostrademons 9y ago
      Exile is the consequence, in this and most other cases.
- flukus 9y ago
  Would a genuinely patriotic person work for the NSA? I'd consider Snowden more patriotic than all of their current employees.
  - lazyasciiart 9y ago
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/who-is-reality-winner.html http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/who-is-reality-...
geodel 9y ago
For the simple reason not everyone will get job at top 5-10 tech companies. There are jobs at consulting /contracting companies but apart from money they are in different league of crappiness. So once you eliminate those 2 categories govt job becomes pretty decent option if one can get it.
- qaq 9y ago
  Work at a company that has big security consulting arm a ton of people came from NSA.
mrep 9y ago
And about matches FANG companies for bachelor degree graduates (I know Amazon's is now 145k total comp starting and I think the others are even higher).
- girardthelinear 9y ago
  145 total comp would not be very high lol. FB returning intern bonus was 100k alone thanks also NSA Intern/FT pay was much much lower. I'm not sure where you're seeing that they match
  - mrep 9y ago
    > That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. The top pay was 150k so that closely matches Amazon new grad offer of 145k which is what my comment was responding too.
schoen 9y ago
A few possibilities: Believing in what the organization does (which could include several different narratives about why its work is good and/or legitimate and/or necessary) Recruitment via channels that civilian firms aren't using and offering people an educational and career path they didn't expect to have Recruitment via family, friend, and teacher channels Wanting to get to know lots of secrets Wanting to work with smart people Wanting to work with fancy hardware (for some subspecialties) Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use Wanting to be paid to work on cryptography at all before the 1980s Wanting to be in a spy movie/novel Wanting to get to perform real attacks against real people and organizations and not go to prison for it I know I've met people in all of the first three categories, and I imagine I've met people in the other categories and not known it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rdtsc 9y ago
  > Wanting to get to know lots of secrets A bit tongue in cheek, but that's the people NSA should least want. They should be looking for those who want to know only the minimum amount of secrets to get their job done. > Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use That's a hard too I'd imagine. I wonder if many end up going in thinking they'd be writing kernel exploits all day and end up twiddling excel spreadsheets or porting a bunch of scripts from python 2.4 to 2.6 once they pass the clearance process. It's not something they could check in advance and not something they could advertise much if they want to tell others when they look for employment elsewhere. > Wanting to be in a spy movie/novel Wonder how much the recruitment appeals to those tendencies. Just like with wanting to know secrets bit. They probably really don't want people who think themselves as James Bond. Though when recruiting college kids, I could see them pulling a bait-and-switch. > Wanting to get to perform real attacks against real people and organizations and not go to prison for it That's a tough one as well. If there is a desire and tendency to attack real people and organizations, there are probably red flags to look for in there as well. Did they already attack? Did they break the law? Did it bother them that they broke the law? Will they continue to break rules and possibly leak classified info... > I know I've met people in all of the first three categories, and I imagine I've met people in the other categories and not known it. Yeah I was offered something like that from a teacher in college. But I was an international student so it didn't possible.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
snowwrestler 9y ago
Because you can do things that would be illegal in private practice, like developing and deploying systems to hack into computers, phones, cars, telecomm equipment, etc. There is a type of work and a class of problems that can only be legally pursued in a federal agency like the NSA.
- jnwatson 9y ago
  You can do the same as a contractor and make double.
mozumder 9y ago
I designed & architected supercomputers at the NSA as a teenager, starting as a co-op, using manufacturing tech that still isn't public decades later. LOL @ the idea of anyone in private industry giving me the opportunity to do that. These are some of the smartest, yet most normal people in the world. They don't go apeshit about free food or Silicon Valley startups. You'll never get fired, and you can raise a family perfectly fine, especially with the great schools in the area. After about $70k in salary, people are generally happy anyways. They're perfectly happy with dealing with pure tech challenges, because it's interesting to them. It should also be clear that the NSA does everything per law. The NSA doesn't spy on US citizens. Remember the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens communications. Why would a TOP SECRET program have filters to remove US citizens communications if they were trying to skirt the law? I can't recommend the NSA enough. NSA caused me to understand that nothing is impossible and that everything in tech is small stuff and manageable. After the NSA, I rapidly did impossible things. (want me to list them?) I honestly don't understand why anyone would do obvious & routine things at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc., when they could be doing more awesome & surprising things at the NSA. It's always fun to see Google come out with something the NSA did years earlier. Finally, and it should be obvious, going to work in a tie is a lot cooler than going to any job where people wear hoodies... but the NSA doesn't make you do that.. I do hate badges though. It's the opposite of Silicon Valley, and it's great.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rdtsc 9y ago
  Saw you were being down-voted, seems unfair, it's good to have a counter-example or an opposing view in a discussion. Maybe it seems to much like a recruiting advertisement... > After about $70k in salary, people are happy anyways. Unfortunately living in DC/VA/MD on that you are competing with private companies which pay more and thus housing and well just about everything is a bit hard to manage on that salary. > I honestly don't understand why anyone would do obvious & routine things at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc What's stopping them from pulling a bait-and-switch. Telling kids they'll be doing exciting stuff that Google and Facebook haven't dreamed of yet, then being a stuck converting perl scripts to python, twiddling excel spreadsheets or writing TPS reports. I think most people would expect more routine working in a govt agency than say at Google.
mcculley 9y ago
> culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie I was amused by this as I have worked in a lot of DoD environments where a tie is "overdressed" and makes others uncomfortable. Likewise for a lot of environments where the uniform is a hoodie.
wang_li 9y ago
>where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. A little off topic observation here, but people who can't handle adhering to a business professional dress code are exhibiting a low resilience personality. Not a good thing. Not to mention the reality that a button down shirt, slacks and a tie, when properly fitted, are not constrictive at all.
- softawre 9y ago
  People who can't handle life at minimum wage aren't showing much resilience either, but why put yourself through that?
- vesrah 9y ago
  I suspect that business professional dress codes coincide with a number of other workplace downers that a lot of us don't like.
- x14 9y ago
  Some people value self-expression and would rather be judged by the quality of their work than their appearance.
  - krapp 9y ago
    Hoodies have become as much a standard of conformity as suits. You're just conforming to an unspoken requirement to appear sufficiently non-conformist. Show up in such an environment wearing a suit and see how much your self-expression is valued.
    - taejo 9y ago
      I've worked at one of the big Bay Area software companies with a guy who wore a suit every day. If I wore one at my current (non-US) company, people might ask me about it for a few days, but I'm pretty sure it'd become the new normal within a week.

by qmalzp 9y ago

paloaltokid 9y ago

Some people are genuinely patriotic.

1001101 9y ago
It's a requirement given the stringency of clearances. The article didn't touch on it, but since Binney/Snowden and revelations about the domestic focus, you may not have the same kind of recruitment/retention you would have otherwise in this demographic.
mindslight 9y ago
You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.
- Codestare 9y ago
  He's not exiled? The US wants him back very much.
  - westmeal 9y ago
    (Presumably so they can kick his teeth in)
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    To be unfairly tried in a trial where he won't even be allowed to argue to the jury that his actions were justified.
- prewett 9y ago
  Generally breaking the law and seeking to escape the consequences has always resulted in effective exile, throughout history. In fact, how could it not? Would you like the law to be suspended in this case, but not in the case of people leaking secrets to China? Where's the difference? Is it just that what you like should be an exception? You could argue it was patriotic to break the law, but working for the NSA hardly forced him to break the law, nor did it force him to avoid the consequences. He could have been like Rosa Parks who accepted the consequences. Admittedly, hers were smaller in magnitude, but there are other options than what Snowden took.
  - watwut 9y ago
    He did accepted the consequences. The consequence is his life now, quite literally. He has zero trust toward legal system as that is not designed to be fair. He his not willing to become martyr more than is necessary - and there is nothing wrong with that. Rosa Park consequences went well beyond being arrested for one night. I am pretty sure she would prefer if she had the option to escape them - she did not. Altrough she did eventually left the city, due to consequences imposed on her there.
  - mindslight 9y ago
    Talking about "the law" is a red herring. The NSA is in explicit violation of USG's founding charter, and yet it remains in comfortable operation. But more importantly, the concept of patriotism is orthogonal.
  - nostrademons 9y ago
    Exile is the consequence, in this and most other cases.
flukus 9y ago
Would a genuinely patriotic person work for the NSA? I'd consider Snowden more patriotic than all of their current employees.
- lazyasciiart 9y ago
  http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/who-is-reality-winner.html http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/who-is-reality-...

geodel 9y ago

For the simple reason not everyone will get job at top 5-10 tech companies. There are jobs at consulting /contracting companies but apart from money they are in different league of crappiness. So once you eliminate those 2 categories govt job becomes pretty decent option if one can get it.

qaq 9y ago
Work at a company that has big security consulting arm a ton of people came from NSA.

mrep 9y ago

And about matches FANG companies for bachelor degree graduates (I know Amazon's is now 145k total comp starting and I think the others are even higher).

girardthelinear 9y ago
145 total comp would not be very high lol. FB returning intern bonus was 100k alone thanks also NSA Intern/FT pay was much much lower. I'm not sure where you're seeing that they match
- mrep 9y ago
  > That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. The top pay was 150k so that closely matches Amazon new grad offer of 145k which is what my comment was responding too.

schoen 9y ago

A few possibilities: Believing in what the organization does (which could include several different narratives about why its work is good and/or legitimate and/or necessary) Recruitment via channels that civilian firms aren't using and offering people an educational and career path they didn't expect to have Recruitment via family, friend, and teacher channels Wanting to get to know lots of secrets Wanting to work with smart people Wanting to work with fancy hardware (for some subspecialties) Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use Wanting to be paid to work on cryptography at all before the 1980s Wanting to be in a spy movie/novel Wanting to get to perform real attacks against real people and organizations and not go to prison for it I know I've met people in all of the first three categories, and I imagine I've met people in the other categories and not known it.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rdtsc 9y ago
> Wanting to get to know lots of secrets A bit tongue in cheek, but that's the people NSA should least want. They should be looking for those who want to know only the minimum amount of secrets to get their job done. > Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use That's a hard too I'd imagine. I wonder if many end up going in thinking they'd be writing kernel exploits all day and end up twiddling excel spreadsheets or porting a bunch of scripts from python 2.4 to 2.6 once they pass the clearance process. It's not something they could check in advance and not something they could advertise much if they want to tell others when they look for employment elsewhere. > Wanting to be in a spy movie/novel Wonder how much the recruitment appeals to those tendencies. Just like with wanting to know secrets bit. They probably really don't want people who think themselves as James Bond. Though when recruiting college kids, I could see them pulling a bait-and-switch. > Wanting to get to perform real attacks against real people and organizations and not go to prison for it That's a tough one as well. If there is a desire and tendency to attack real people and organizations, there are probably red flags to look for in there as well. Did they already attack? Did they break the law? Did it bother them that they broke the law? Will they continue to break rules and possibly leak classified info... > I know I've met people in all of the first three categories, and I imagine I've met people in the other categories and not known it. Yeah I was offered something like that from a teacher in college. But I was an international student so it didn't possible.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

snowwrestler 9y ago

Because you can do things that would be illegal in private practice, like developing and deploying systems to hack into computers, phones, cars, telecomm equipment, etc. There is a type of work and a class of problems that can only be legally pursued in a federal agency like the NSA.

jnwatson 9y ago
You can do the same as a contractor and make double.

mozumder 9y ago

I designed & architected supercomputers at the NSA as a teenager, starting as a co-op, using manufacturing tech that still isn't public decades later. LOL @ the idea of anyone in private industry giving me the opportunity to do that. These are some of the smartest, yet most normal people in the world. They don't go apeshit about free food or Silicon Valley startups. You'll never get fired, and you can raise a family perfectly fine, especially with the great schools in the area. After about $70k in salary, people are generally happy anyways. They're perfectly happy with dealing with pure tech challenges, because it's interesting to them. It should also be clear that the NSA does everything per law. The NSA doesn't spy on US citizens. Remember the Snowden leaks revealed filters that removed US citizens communications. Why would a TOP SECRET program have filters to remove US citizens communications if they were trying to skirt the law? I can't recommend the NSA enough. NSA caused me to understand that nothing is impossible and that everything in tech is small stuff and manageable. After the NSA, I rapidly did impossible things. (want me to list them?) I honestly don't understand why anyone would do obvious & routine things at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc., when they could be doing more awesome & surprising things at the NSA. It's always fun to see Google come out with something the NSA did years earlier. Finally, and it should be obvious, going to work in a tie is a lot cooler than going to any job where people wear hoodies... but the NSA doesn't make you do that.. I do hate badges though. It's the opposite of Silicon Valley, and it's great.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rdtsc 9y ago
Saw you were being down-voted, seems unfair, it's good to have a counter-example or an opposing view in a discussion. Maybe it seems to much like a recruiting advertisement... > After about $70k in salary, people are happy anyways. Unfortunately living in DC/VA/MD on that you are competing with private companies which pay more and thus housing and well just about everything is a bit hard to manage on that salary. > I honestly don't understand why anyone would do obvious & routine things at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc What's stopping them from pulling a bait-and-switch. Telling kids they'll be doing exciting stuff that Google and Facebook haven't dreamed of yet, then being a stuck converting perl scripts to python, twiddling excel spreadsheets or writing TPS reports. I think most people would expect more routine working in a govt agency than say at Google.

mcculley 9y ago

> culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie I was amused by this as I have worked in a lot of DoD environments where a tie is "overdressed" and makes others uncomfortable. Likewise for a lot of environments where the uniform is a hoodie.

wang_li 9y ago

>where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. A little off topic observation here, but people who can't handle adhering to a business professional dress code are exhibiting a low resilience personality. Not a good thing. Not to mention the reality that a button down shirt, slacks and a tie, when properly fitted, are not constrictive at all.

softawre 9y ago
People who can't handle life at minimum wage aren't showing much resilience either, but why put yourself through that?
vesrah 9y ago
I suspect that business professional dress codes coincide with a number of other workplace downers that a lot of us don't like.
x14 9y ago
Some people value self-expression and would rather be judged by the quality of their work than their appearance.
- krapp 9y ago
  Hoodies have become as much a standard of conformity as suits. You're just conforming to an unspoken requirement to appear sufficiently non-conformist. Show up in such an environment wearing a suit and see how much your self-expression is valued.
  - taejo 9y ago
    I've worked at one of the big Bay Area software companies with a guy who wore a suit every day. If I wore one at my current (non-US) company, people might ask me about it for a few days, but I'm pretty sure it'd become the new normal within a week.