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I just really can't stand it when people measure the value of work by hours. It's a pet peeve. Sorry. I'm also somewhat irritated when people call it "women'

I just really can't stand it when people measure the value of work by hours. It's a pet peeve. Sorry. I'm also somewhat irritated when people call it "women's work", as it puts the whole conversation on a sexist basis from the start, even though that is a factually and historically accurate way to describe it.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
As respectfully as possible: it sounds like you and your wife have not really sorted this. Which isn't some harsh criticism. The world today is largely dumping a lot on hetero couples and leaving it up to them to figure out what works when time honored tradition no longer does. If you can find a copy of the book "Chore Wars," maybe that would be useful. I don't disagree with you that domestic chores need to be streamlined as part of the solution. But the subtext of your long comment is just a whole lot of anger at "women," which probably means at the state of things between you and your wife, and kicking an internet stranger is less harmful to your life than just taking it out on your wife. But I ain't crazy about being kicked, no matter how much I can understand the dynamic likely driving it.
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  I never said "wife", but I did say you were free to assume. You can comb through my whole history of comments here on HN; I have never (to my recollection) said what I am or what I am married to. And that has been almost entirely to avoid ad hominem in discussions such as this. As a matter of fact, my spouse acts a lot like my father and I act much like my mother. He also makes every little task a needlessly complicated affair, but he largely does it to get attention and recognition, as an insufferable extrovert. And then he doesn't get it, because my mother and all their children only look at the actual results. Somehow, they're still married, even after so many decades of putting up with the other one's crap. And my spouse and I are sorted. As I mentioned, the only way to not do any of the work yourself--including the mental/emotional effort--is to let someone else do it their own way. So if my spouse does a job in a way that I find grandiose and inefficient, that's fine. If I do a job in a way my spouse considers to be half-assed and slipshod, that's also fine. There is an equitable division of labor insofar as we can both agree on what actually needs doing. Either of us is, of course, free to do other things that the other person does not care about, but that work will not be paid as well with the intra-family currency based on gratitude and respect. The greatest sticking point is that my spouse wants to be paid (in that currency) by the hour and I want to be paid by the job. And that mirrors in miniature all the people out there that believe in the labor theory of value, versus all those that do not. I don't care how hard you work at something, or how long it took for you to do it. I only care what you got done. And if you did something that no one else wanted, your effort doesn't count for as much as if you had done something that everyone needed. So when I hear you say that women do N hours more work inside the household than men, I feel I must rebut: Time is not how everyone measures the value of labor. That, of course, raises the question of how the value of labor should be measured. The tick marks on your household yardstick might be equally useless or worse, like SLoC or story points. Anecdotally, I have found it's usually better to not have an accounting based relationship, and to avoid keeping score on everything. If you feel emotionally as though you're working too hard, and your partner not hard enough, maybe talk about it to move expectations closer to reality. But telling your other that you are working 18 more hours per week on your relationship than they are is not likely to produce the result you are hoping for.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I never said "wife", but I did say you were free to assume. You are correct. My error. But I see zero justification for you starting with a venomous comment and coming back now with a high handed comment that places all the blame here on other people, their prejudices and their propensity for ad hominems. For the record: There was zero intent to attack you. I was doing my best to be understanding in the face of a really ugly remark. Sometimes when I do that, it goes very well. Sometimes, like now, it does not. And I will make a mental note of this incident and try to keep it in mind should I run into you again on the forum. This has been an entirely unpleasant experience for me.
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      It isn't your fault. I'm not a pleasant person. I don't care to explain why right now, but it isn't right for me to spread my damage to others without their consent. So I'm sorry for doing that.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

As respectfully as possible: it sounds like you and your wife have not really sorted this. Which isn't some harsh criticism. The world today is largely dumping a lot on hetero couples and leaving it up to them to figure out what works when time honored tradition no longer does. If you can find a copy of the book "Chore Wars," maybe that would be useful. I don't disagree with you that domestic chores need to be streamlined as part of the solution. But the subtext of your long comment is just a whole lot of anger at "women," which probably means at the state of things between you and your wife, and kicking an internet stranger is less harmful to your life than just taking it out on your wife. But I ain't crazy about being kicked, no matter how much I can understand the dynamic likely driving it.

logfromblammo 9y ago
I never said "wife", but I did say you were free to assume. You can comb through my whole history of comments here on HN; I have never (to my recollection) said what I am or what I am married to. And that has been almost entirely to avoid ad hominem in discussions such as this. As a matter of fact, my spouse acts a lot like my father and I act much like my mother. He also makes every little task a needlessly complicated affair, but he largely does it to get attention and recognition, as an insufferable extrovert. And then he doesn't get it, because my mother and all their children only look at the actual results. Somehow, they're still married, even after so many decades of putting up with the other one's crap. And my spouse and I are sorted. As I mentioned, the only way to not do any of the work yourself--including the mental/emotional effort--is to let someone else do it their own way. So if my spouse does a job in a way that I find grandiose and inefficient, that's fine. If I do a job in a way my spouse considers to be half-assed and slipshod, that's also fine. There is an equitable division of labor insofar as we can both agree on what actually needs doing. Either of us is, of course, free to do other things that the other person does not care about, but that work will not be paid as well with the intra-family currency based on gratitude and respect. The greatest sticking point is that my spouse wants to be paid (in that currency) by the hour and I want to be paid by the job. And that mirrors in miniature all the people out there that believe in the labor theory of value, versus all those that do not. I don't care how hard you work at something, or how long it took for you to do it. I only care what you got done. And if you did something that no one else wanted, your effort doesn't count for as much as if you had done something that everyone needed. So when I hear you say that women do N hours more work inside the household than men, I feel I must rebut: Time is not how everyone measures the value of labor. That, of course, raises the question of how the value of labor should be measured. The tick marks on your household yardstick might be equally useless or worse, like SLoC or story points. Anecdotally, I have found it's usually better to not have an accounting based relationship, and to avoid keeping score on everything. If you feel emotionally as though you're working too hard, and your partner not hard enough, maybe talk about it to move expectations closer to reality. But telling your other that you are working 18 more hours per week on your relationship than they are is not likely to produce the result you are hoping for.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I never said "wife", but I did say you were free to assume. You are correct. My error. But I see zero justification for you starting with a venomous comment and coming back now with a high handed comment that places all the blame here on other people, their prejudices and their propensity for ad hominems. For the record: There was zero intent to attack you. I was doing my best to be understanding in the face of a really ugly remark. Sometimes when I do that, it goes very well. Sometimes, like now, it does not. And I will make a mental note of this incident and try to keep it in mind should I run into you again on the forum. This has been an entirely unpleasant experience for me.
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    It isn't your fault. I'm not a pleasant person. I don't care to explain why right now, but it isn't right for me to spread my damage to others without their consent. So I'm sorry for doing that.