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So, anything that uses a JIT, such as the LLVM JIT, is not "native"? Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? Are programs in Java for Android no

So, anything that uses a JIT, such as the LLVM JIT, is not "native"? Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? Are programs in Java for Android not native, even though it is the language much of the OS is written in and what the standard UI toolkit is built for? Seems like lots of projects are likely to become non-native over time, by this definition, even if they start out "native" with a basic C/C++ codebase, since lots of projects accrete some sort of scripting or extension interface that might use a runtime of some sort. Is Emacs not native? Does it really matter if the runtime (which is machine code) was made by the compiler developer or by the application developer in some cases? I feel like there's an arbitrary line, and it's not entirely useful distinction to make. A native app can be big and slow and ugly and fail to follow the OS UI guideliness. An app with a runtime can be small(ish) and fast and beautiful and strictly adhere to the UI guidelines for the OS in question. I want the small, fast, beautiful, app with standard UI behavior, no matter whether it's delivered with a runtime embedded or built from C/C++ (and a few others) and without a JIT. I mean, we're just arguing semantics here, which is kinda silly. I think it's pretty neat; I don't really like working in Java, but I'd rather work in Java than C/C++, so if I needed to deliver a cross-platform GUI app, I'd certainly consider it.

dullgiulio 9y ago
LLVM IR is transformed into native code only once. You don't ship the assembler to your users for a C program. Of course the JVM has advantages that it can dynamically optimize code according to actual execution profiles. If I am not mistaken with the right instrumentation LLVM can also makw your program generate a special optimization profile which you can then apply to your final build compilation.
chrisseaton 9y ago
> Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? Well I think that's a different meaning of the word 'native'. They're native in terms of being written using the recommended techniques for that platform, but not native in terms of being natively compiled. But as you say it's just a discussion of semantics.
igravious 9y ago
> So, anything that uses a JIT, such as the LLVM JIT, is not "native"? Correct. > Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? No they are not, because .Net uses an intermediate representation, being Windows and Microsoft confers no magic "native"-ness. > Are programs in Java for Android not native, even though it is the language much of the OS is written in and what the standard UI toolkit is built for? Programs in Java for Android are not native. Much of the kernel (Linux) is written in C. According to "Francesco Iovine, AndroidStudio lover" over at Quora[0] the UI toolkit is written in Java and the virtual machines (Dalvik and Art) are written in C++. > Is Emacs not native? Emacs is a strange and evil beast whose name we shall not invoke. No, but seriously – I imagine Emacs is a hybrid native / Emacs lisp program. Many programs with embedded scripting languages are hybrid beasts but they ought to be thought of as native apps if they are compiled for a certain bare metal hardware platform. I presume the core of Emacs is C. Ergo, native. > Does it really matter if the runtime (which is machine code) was made by the compiler developer or by the application developer in some cases? Yes, I believe it does matter. > I feel like there's an arbitrary line, and it's not entirely useful distinction to make. No, I don't believe it's arbitrary. > A native app can be big and slow and ugly and fail to follow the OS UI guideliness. An app with a runtime can be small(ish) and fast and beautiful and strictly adhere to the UI guidelines for the OS in question. I want the small, fast, beautiful, app with standard UI behavior, no matter whether it's delivered with a runtime embedded or built from C/C++ (and a few others) and without a JIT. True. But that is neither here nor there, that's a whole other issue. > I mean, we're just arguing semantics here, which is kinda silly. No, we are not. A native app is one which is either hand-crafted assembly for a specific hardware platform or compiled ahead of time targeting a specific platform. Native code is non-portable, the source code might be portable, but generally is not unless care is taken. Assembly code is never portable. Non-native (whether by VM: Java, C#, … or interpreted: Ruby, Python, …) tends to be more portable. [0] https://www.quora.com/What-programming-language(s)-is-Android-written-in https://www.quora.com/What-programming-language(s)-is-Androi...
- kazinator 9y ago
  Suppose I write a C program and then deploy it on a target machine where it is continuously running thereafter. Then I develop a loadable module (.so) which I compile, upload to the target and get the C program to load it with dlopen. Is that native or not? If it's native, why isn't JIT to machine code not native? Because of the convenience of all of the above happening on a fine-grained level (individual functions), and all on the target machine? Also, what is "compiled ahead of time"? Ahead of what time? Why is that specific time important? Obviously, code is compiled ahead of its compiled image being run; the compiled version cannot be run any sooner. Any JIT-ted function is compiled ahead of being called. On most operating systems, we can load programs after the OS boots. Those programs can be developed after the OS booted. I think that the only true definition of "native" is that the program image was compiled before the hardware was built and turned on for the first time, and was present in its ROM. Anything else is not "ahead of time" and not native, damn it! Installing a program on your PC is just a form of JIT. The system was fired up without that program being there, and the program was snuck in just moments before the user's intent to use that program. Not ahead of the True Scotsmans proper time: the time when components were stuffed into the circuit board and it was powered up.
pjmlp 9y ago
> Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? C# always had AOT compilation to native code via NGEN. Just that few people bother to use it, because it only allows dynamic linking, the optimizer is tailored for fast startup time and requires an extra effort with application signing. Windows 8 apps were always AOT compiled on the store via a "cloud compiler", based on Bartok from Singularity project. Using a format known as MDIL. Windows 10 apps are always AOT compiled via .NET Native, which shares the backend with Visual C++. Mono always supported AOT compilation and it is the way Xamarin apps are deployed on iDevices.

dullgiulio 9y ago

LLVM IR is transformed into native code only once. You don't ship the assembler to your users for a C program. Of course the JVM has advantages that it can dynamically optimize code according to actual execution profiles. If I am not mistaken with the right instrumentation LLVM can also makw your program generate a special optimization profile which you can then apply to your final build compilation.

chrisseaton 9y ago

> Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? Well I think that's a different meaning of the word 'native'. They're native in terms of being written using the recommended techniques for that platform, but not native in terms of being natively compiled. But as you say it's just a discussion of semantics.

igravious 9y ago

> So, anything that uses a JIT, such as the LLVM JIT, is not "native"? Correct. > Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? No they are not, because .Net uses an intermediate representation, being Windows and Microsoft confers no magic "native"-ness. > Are programs in Java for Android not native, even though it is the language much of the OS is written in and what the standard UI toolkit is built for? Programs in Java for Android are not native. Much of the kernel (Linux) is written in C. According to "Francesco Iovine, AndroidStudio lover" over at Quora[0] the UI toolkit is written in Java and the virtual machines (Dalvik and Art) are written in C++. > Is Emacs not native? Emacs is a strange and evil beast whose name we shall not invoke. No, but seriously – I imagine Emacs is a hybrid native / Emacs lisp program. Many programs with embedded scripting languages are hybrid beasts but they ought to be thought of as native apps if they are compiled for a certain bare metal hardware platform. I presume the core of Emacs is C. Ergo, native. > Does it really matter if the runtime (which is machine code) was made by the compiler developer or by the application developer in some cases? Yes, I believe it does matter. > I feel like there's an arbitrary line, and it's not entirely useful distinction to make. No, I don't believe it's arbitrary. > A native app can be big and slow and ugly and fail to follow the OS UI guideliness. An app with a runtime can be small(ish) and fast and beautiful and strictly adhere to the UI guidelines for the OS in question. I want the small, fast, beautiful, app with standard UI behavior, no matter whether it's delivered with a runtime embedded or built from C/C++ (and a few others) and without a JIT. True. But that is neither here nor there, that's a whole other issue. > I mean, we're just arguing semantics here, which is kinda silly. No, we are not. A native app is one which is either hand-crafted assembly for a specific hardware platform or compiled ahead of time targeting a specific platform. Native code is non-portable, the source code might be portable, but generally is not unless care is taken. Assembly code is never portable. Non-native (whether by VM: Java, C#, … or interpreted: Ruby, Python, …) tends to be more portable. [0] https://www.quora.com/What-programming-language(s)-is-Android-written-in https://www.quora.com/What-programming-language(s)-is-Androi...

kazinator 9y ago
Suppose I write a C program and then deploy it on a target machine where it is continuously running thereafter. Then I develop a loadable module (.so) which I compile, upload to the target and get the C program to load it with dlopen. Is that native or not? If it's native, why isn't JIT to machine code not native? Because of the convenience of all of the above happening on a fine-grained level (individual functions), and all on the target machine? Also, what is "compiled ahead of time"? Ahead of what time? Why is that specific time important? Obviously, code is compiled ahead of its compiled image being run; the compiled version cannot be run any sooner. Any JIT-ted function is compiled ahead of being called. On most operating systems, we can load programs after the OS boots. Those programs can be developed after the OS booted. I think that the only true definition of "native" is that the program image was compiled before the hardware was built and turned on for the first time, and was present in its ROM. Anything else is not "ahead of time" and not native, damn it! Installing a program on your PC is just a form of JIT. The system was fired up without that program being there, and the program was snuck in just moments before the user's intent to use that program. Not ahead of the True Scotsmans proper time: the time when components were stuffed into the circuit board and it was powered up.

pjmlp 9y ago

> Are programs written in C# not native, even on Windows? C# always had AOT compilation to native code via NGEN. Just that few people bother to use it, because it only allows dynamic linking, the optimizer is tailored for fast startup time and requires an extra effort with application signing. Windows 8 apps were always AOT compiled on the store via a "cloud compiler", based on Bartok from Singularity project. Using a format known as MDIL. Windows 10 apps are always AOT compiled via .NET Native, which shares the backend with Visual C++. Mono always supported AOT compilation and it is the way Xamarin apps are deployed on iDevices.