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First, poverty is gendered. One of the things that drives poverty for women is the cultural expectation that we provide caregiving to our own children and other

First, poverty is gendered. One of the things that drives poverty for women is the cultural expectation that we provide caregiving to our own children and other relatives essentially for free and that society owes us nothing for this imposition on our time and energy. Where does the fact that more homeless in the U.S. are men than women fit into this for you?

andonisus 9y ago
I believe they meant that poverty is experienced differently by gender, not that it only happens to one gender.
DoreenMichele 9y ago
That's really complicated. One thing that drives higher rates of homelessness for men is that it is safer for them. Homeless women are at high risk of being raped. Women often put up with things men will not tolerate in order to avoid the street because it is the lesser evil. Of course, that isn't something most people want to hear. I am a woman and I spent 5.7 years homeless. It helped me solve some of my intractable personal problems. I am newly off the street and recently applied for my dream job. I hope to soon have the life I always wanted and could not arrange. I got it in part by taking the whole deal involved in exercising agency like a man, a luxury many women lack. But commenting on such things tends to not be well received. Men want to play their own victim card when it comes to that statistic and it is never acceptable to point out that there is an element of choice involved and the greater degree of agency generally exercised by men is a driving factor in higher rates of male homelessness. It sounds like victim blaming to a lot of people.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  In more or less all western societies men are found in the top and in the bottom of society. I am perfectly fine with accepting that there is an element of choice involved if that also explains why men are found in the top of society. My experience is that many women will not agree on that but instead point to (if they are really stereotype feminists) patriarchal structures in society benefitting men.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I'm not a feminist. I was on the street with my two adult sons. I have a track record of making even handed comments about gendered issues on HN.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      That's fine. I wonder still though if you agree that it also explains why men are found in the top.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        I think it is more complicated than that. And I doubt we would be able to have a good discussion on the matter. You seem to be driving towards "Women just don't want it bad enough." There is some truth to that. But there is also a higher cost to women to just do the will-to-power thing and, in the aggregate, it doesn't serve survival of the species.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        I am simply responding to your claim about men making choices and wondering if you are consistent with this or whether you claim it only applies to men.
        DoreenMichele 9y ago
        In general, men and women face a different set of choices. It tends to be an apples to oranges comparison. I do think this is an element: Generally speaking, women have an option men lack. They can marry well. Given this easy out, when things get challenging at work, some will walk, especially since they have vastly less reason to believe they can achieve stellar success and they also face sexual harassment to a degree that far exceeds what men face. So, with poorer odds of reward, a typically worse set of working conditions due to the element of harassment and another option on the table, this will lead a lot of women to give up where men have fewer disincentives to persist and no easy out. Women need to "want" it a helluva lot worse for wanting it to have any hope of getting them as far as a man is likely to get. So it is a rather unfair question and it really comes across like it has a very polite facade, but dark agenda. I will add that I have already previously indicated women make choices as well when they choose to put up with crappy situations to avoid being raped on the street. So I don't plan to engage you further.
- cbstory 9y ago
  What are then victim hood stats by gender? While I would agree that homeless women would more often be victims of sexual violence, but sexual violence is not the only kind of violence. Do the stats really show that homeless men are safer? Regarding your last comment, what do you mean by "greater degree of agency" and how do you measure it? We don't live in Saudi Arabia. Women can make all the same choices men can. Like what is stopping other women from doing what you did and how does that also not stop men? It sounds like victim blaming because it is. In our society we tend towards believing people are not deserving of help if they are in bad situations due to their own choices. I don't believe because I understand how hard it can be to make the right choices, and also because as far as I have seen that's true of almost everyone in a bad spot. That doesn't mean we shouldn't help them, because we should help everyone who suffers.
ryanobjc 9y ago
Homelessness is only the most visible sign of poverty. If we somehow gave all homeless people some walls to live in, let's say without running water and no heat, would we have "solved" poverty? Of course not. As the GP pointed out, homelessness is safer for men. How about this fact: 21% of children live in poverty. How does that fit in for you?
- Amygaz 9y ago
  To add to your point, a fair amount of homeless people have mental illness, so no amount of job will help them if we don't care to their mental health. (The official US number is 25%, but I feel like Canada and UK surveys pairing mental illness and homelessness at up to 70% is closer to the reality.)
  - lsc 9y ago
    > To add to your point, a fair amount of homeless people have mental illness, so no amount of job will help them if we don't care to their mental health. Mental illness isn't always a 100% sort of thing. Most people I know have been diagnosed with some sort of mental illness at some point or another, most of them either temporary or minor. Most of these people are gainfully employed, most of the time. Some of these people have had some issues retaining employment due to a mental issue getting worse. The more demand for your labor there is, the easier it is to get back on your feet after a temporary worsening of your condition is resolved, and that's super important, I think. Also, if you have chronic issues, the degree to which your employer will tolerate those chronic issues is determined largely by demand for your labor. I mean, certainly, there are some who are completely disabled, and I imagine that if you took one of those people I know with minor issues that periodically got worse and better, they'd have a hell of a time trying to get better if they were homeless. Certainly, mental health treatment is important and would help a lot. I'm just saying that more demand for your labor is also something that helps a lot, even when you do have some other issues.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    Imagine getting rid of all your possessions and wealth, moving somewhere that you have no support network, not talking to anyone you know, and living on the street (going hungry sometimes, facing the elements, not being able to shower regularly, wearing holes in all your clothes, ...). After 5 years, what do you think the chances are that people will consider you “mentally ill”? If you want to make the experiment more realistic, imagine also suffering some trauma that causes you extreme amounts of anxiety for a while such as going through a messy divorce with a scheming narcissist, having your family disown you, getting severely physically assaulted, or killing several innocent people. Many “mentally ill” people were formerly considered “sane” within the bounds of social norms, but even the best prepared can fall on hard times, and being homeless and socially isolated is really hard even for the mentally strongest.
deleted 9y ago
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andonisus 9y ago

I believe they meant that poverty is experienced differently by gender, not that it only happens to one gender.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

That's really complicated. One thing that drives higher rates of homelessness for men is that it is safer for them. Homeless women are at high risk of being raped. Women often put up with things men will not tolerate in order to avoid the street because it is the lesser evil. Of course, that isn't something most people want to hear. I am a woman and I spent 5.7 years homeless. It helped me solve some of my intractable personal problems. I am newly off the street and recently applied for my dream job. I hope to soon have the life I always wanted and could not arrange. I got it in part by taking the whole deal involved in exercising agency like a man, a luxury many women lack. But commenting on such things tends to not be well received. Men want to play their own victim card when it comes to that statistic and it is never acceptable to point out that there is an element of choice involved and the greater degree of agency generally exercised by men is a driving factor in higher rates of male homelessness. It sounds like victim blaming to a lot of people.

ThomPete 9y ago
In more or less all western societies men are found in the top and in the bottom of society. I am perfectly fine with accepting that there is an element of choice involved if that also explains why men are found in the top of society. My experience is that many women will not agree on that but instead point to (if they are really stereotype feminists) patriarchal structures in society benefitting men.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I'm not a feminist. I was on the street with my two adult sons. I have a track record of making even handed comments about gendered issues on HN.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    That's fine. I wonder still though if you agree that it also explains why men are found in the top.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      I think it is more complicated than that. And I doubt we would be able to have a good discussion on the matter. You seem to be driving towards "Women just don't want it bad enough." There is some truth to that. But there is also a higher cost to women to just do the will-to-power thing and, in the aggregate, it doesn't serve survival of the species.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        I am simply responding to your claim about men making choices and wondering if you are consistent with this or whether you claim it only applies to men.
        DoreenMichele 9y ago
        In general, men and women face a different set of choices. It tends to be an apples to oranges comparison. I do think this is an element: Generally speaking, women have an option men lack. They can marry well. Given this easy out, when things get challenging at work, some will walk, especially since they have vastly less reason to believe they can achieve stellar success and they also face sexual harassment to a degree that far exceeds what men face. So, with poorer odds of reward, a typically worse set of working conditions due to the element of harassment and another option on the table, this will lead a lot of women to give up where men have fewer disincentives to persist and no easy out. Women need to "want" it a helluva lot worse for wanting it to have any hope of getting them as far as a man is likely to get. So it is a rather unfair question and it really comes across like it has a very polite facade, but dark agenda. I will add that I have already previously indicated women make choices as well when they choose to put up with crappy situations to avoid being raped on the street. So I don't plan to engage you further.
cbstory 9y ago
What are then victim hood stats by gender? While I would agree that homeless women would more often be victims of sexual violence, but sexual violence is not the only kind of violence. Do the stats really show that homeless men are safer? Regarding your last comment, what do you mean by "greater degree of agency" and how do you measure it? We don't live in Saudi Arabia. Women can make all the same choices men can. Like what is stopping other women from doing what you did and how does that also not stop men? It sounds like victim blaming because it is. In our society we tend towards believing people are not deserving of help if they are in bad situations due to their own choices. I don't believe because I understand how hard it can be to make the right choices, and also because as far as I have seen that's true of almost everyone in a bad spot. That doesn't mean we shouldn't help them, because we should help everyone who suffers.

ryanobjc 9y ago

Homelessness is only the most visible sign of poverty. If we somehow gave all homeless people some walls to live in, let's say without running water and no heat, would we have "solved" poverty? Of course not. As the GP pointed out, homelessness is safer for men. How about this fact: 21% of children live in poverty. How does that fit in for you?

Amygaz 9y ago
To add to your point, a fair amount of homeless people have mental illness, so no amount of job will help them if we don't care to their mental health. (The official US number is 25%, but I feel like Canada and UK surveys pairing mental illness and homelessness at up to 70% is closer to the reality.)
- lsc 9y ago
  > To add to your point, a fair amount of homeless people have mental illness, so no amount of job will help them if we don't care to their mental health. Mental illness isn't always a 100% sort of thing. Most people I know have been diagnosed with some sort of mental illness at some point or another, most of them either temporary or minor. Most of these people are gainfully employed, most of the time. Some of these people have had some issues retaining employment due to a mental issue getting worse. The more demand for your labor there is, the easier it is to get back on your feet after a temporary worsening of your condition is resolved, and that's super important, I think. Also, if you have chronic issues, the degree to which your employer will tolerate those chronic issues is determined largely by demand for your labor. I mean, certainly, there are some who are completely disabled, and I imagine that if you took one of those people I know with minor issues that periodically got worse and better, they'd have a hell of a time trying to get better if they were homeless. Certainly, mental health treatment is important and would help a lot. I'm just saying that more demand for your labor is also something that helps a lot, even when you do have some other issues.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  Imagine getting rid of all your possessions and wealth, moving somewhere that you have no support network, not talking to anyone you know, and living on the street (going hungry sometimes, facing the elements, not being able to shower regularly, wearing holes in all your clothes, ...). After 5 years, what do you think the chances are that people will consider you “mentally ill”? If you want to make the experiment more realistic, imagine also suffering some trauma that causes you extreme amounts of anxiety for a while such as going through a messy divorce with a scheming narcissist, having your family disown you, getting severely physically assaulted, or killing several innocent people. Many “mentally ill” people were formerly considered “sane” within the bounds of social norms, but even the best prepared can fall on hard times, and being homeless and socially isolated is really hard even for the mentally strongest.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]