4 ms·

That syntax looks arbitrary and frankly, hell to mantain. The cost:benefit ratio of learning all these idioms ("idioms", a huge red flag) doesn't seem efficient

by atoko 9y ago

That syntax looks arbitrary and frankly, hell to mantain. The cost:benefit ratio of learning all these idioms ("idioms", a huge red flag) doesn't seem efficient at all. I apologize for being blunt, yet I still recognize your work as great for pushing boundaries in web development. What made you turn away from javascript and into templates?

rich_harris 9y ago
Simply put, you can do more with templates. It's the Principle of Least Power at work — the same way you can do more with a blob of JSON than a blob of JavaScript, templates allow you to do things that are basically impossible with JSX, such as compiling to a string concat function for server-side rendering that is much, much faster. Ask the teams behind Glimmer, Marko, and other tools, and they'll tell you the exact same thing. We've basically covered all those idioms in a few paragraphs. There's very little extra stuff to learn. Now if I may be blunt in return, I was converting the React RealWorld implementation to Svelte for the purposes of this post, and there were moments that I spat out my coffee at how absurd some of it was — twice as much code, with some truly bizarre (but idiomatic-to-React) constructs. It's all a matter of perspective and familiarity!
- fineline 9y ago
  Hi Rich, I notice you mention Marko. That was my first thought when checking out Svelte today - Marko uses somewhat similar approach, and thus brings somewhat similar benefits. But Marko has couple of other advantages - beautiful "concise" syntax option, and easy debugging at dev time as the Lasso bundler turns JS modules into equivalent files in the browser, complete with same line numbering. (It only works with CommonJS modules, but that's what I prefer to use anyway as it allows unit testing in Node without transpilation.) What advantages would you say Svelte has that would make me consider using it over Marko? Thanks.
  - rich_harris 9y ago
    I'd say it's a matter of personal preference as much as anything else. (Personally I'm not a fan of the compact syntax — I prefer just using HTML and CSS, but it's subjective.) Performance-wise, you'll get great results with either framework. You mention debugging — Svelte creates useful sourcemaps, and the generated code is very readable anyway. Svelte has a few features you might find interesting (AFAIK Marko doesn't offer these, though I'm not intimately familiar with it): * it can compile directly to custom elements * your styles are scoped to the component * declarative transitions * built-in global store (think Redux, but zero boilerplate) * useful element bindings (for e.g. customisable media players https://svelte.technology/repl?example=binding-media-elements https://svelte.technology/repl?example=binding-media-element...) * computed properties. these are a lifesaver when you're doing a lot of complex reactive stuff and so on. Also, I don't think Marko has an equivalent of Sapper. Finally, while Marko is slimmer than the likes or React or Vue, there's still a runtime library you need to include on your pages. A typical Sapper page is about the same size as Marko by itself, before you've added any app code.
    - fineline 9y ago
      Thanks, sounds worth a closer look.

by atoko 9y ago

rich_harris 9y ago

Simply put, you can do more with templates. It's the Principle of Least Power at work — the same way you can do more with a blob of JSON than a blob of JavaScript, templates allow you to do things that are basically impossible with JSX, such as compiling to a string concat function for server-side rendering that is much, much faster. Ask the teams behind Glimmer, Marko, and other tools, and they'll tell you the exact same thing. We've basically covered all those idioms in a few paragraphs. There's very little extra stuff to learn. Now if I may be blunt in return, I was converting the React RealWorld implementation to Svelte for the purposes of this post, and there were moments that I spat out my coffee at how absurd some of it was — twice as much code, with some truly bizarre (but idiomatic-to-React) constructs. It's all a matter of perspective and familiarity!

fineline 9y ago
Hi Rich, I notice you mention Marko. That was my first thought when checking out Svelte today - Marko uses somewhat similar approach, and thus brings somewhat similar benefits. But Marko has couple of other advantages - beautiful "concise" syntax option, and easy debugging at dev time as the Lasso bundler turns JS modules into equivalent files in the browser, complete with same line numbering. (It only works with CommonJS modules, but that's what I prefer to use anyway as it allows unit testing in Node without transpilation.) What advantages would you say Svelte has that would make me consider using it over Marko? Thanks.
- rich_harris 9y ago
  I'd say it's a matter of personal preference as much as anything else. (Personally I'm not a fan of the compact syntax — I prefer just using HTML and CSS, but it's subjective.) Performance-wise, you'll get great results with either framework. You mention debugging — Svelte creates useful sourcemaps, and the generated code is very readable anyway. Svelte has a few features you might find interesting (AFAIK Marko doesn't offer these, though I'm not intimately familiar with it): * it can compile directly to custom elements * your styles are scoped to the component * declarative transitions * built-in global store (think Redux, but zero boilerplate) * useful element bindings (for e.g. customisable media players https://svelte.technology/repl?example=binding-media-elements https://svelte.technology/repl?example=binding-media-element...) * computed properties. these are a lifesaver when you're doing a lot of complex reactive stuff and so on. Also, I don't think Marko has an equivalent of Sapper. Finally, while Marko is slimmer than the likes or React or Vue, there's still a runtime library you need to include on your pages. A typical Sapper page is about the same size as Marko by itself, before you've added any app code.
  - fineline 9y ago
    Thanks, sounds worth a closer look.