4 ms·

As a vegetarian, I'm really excited for lab grown meat. The choice is primarily ethical for me and if we can give people high protein foods they enjoy with conf

As a vegetarian, I'm really excited for lab grown meat. The choice is primarily ethical for me and if we can give people high protein foods they enjoy with confining or killing animals on a massive scale, I see it as a huge win.

luisramalho 9y ago
Totally agree, plus animals are extremely inefficient meat producers.
- drb91 9y ago
  Er, compared to what? Animals may not be an energy efficient food, but they are the only way to get meat.
  - akgerber 9y ago
    Eating non-animal foods and producing meat (muscle) inside your body.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - jriot 9y ago
      It is far more efficient to eat animals and produce muscle. There aren't many world renowned athletes who are vegan for obvious reasons.
      - marcc 9y ago
        Will you elaborate on the obvious reasons? Pretend they aren't obvious to me. I'm interested in reading more about athletic advantages gained from consuming meat. Is there a reason that other sources of protein aren't giving the same benefit?
        jriot 9y ago
        Here is a good article breaking it all down along with the amounts you would need to eat to get the same benefit. https://www.muscleforlife.com/animal-protein-vs-plant-protein/ https://www.muscleforlife.com/animal-protein-vs-plant-protei...
        gruez 9y ago
        efficiency in that context means from a global of view, not how much time you're spending eating.
      - rsynnott 9y ago
        I assume they mean efficiency as in land area used etc. You have to put quite a lot of calories into a cow to get one calorie out.
        jriot 9y ago
        https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/ https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-fr... Being vegan is that efficient either.
        tgb 9y ago
        That's a poor summary of the article you link, given that it says vegan diets are almost twice as efficient as the standard American diet. (It just also says that low-meat diets are even more efficient in terms of land use.)
      - mdarens 9y ago
        seeing as how veganism is not the default choice in most of the industrialized world, this is a misleading frame. it's also incorrect that it's more efficient to "eat animals" to produce muscle if we're being pedantic (as a vegetarian, however, this is not a meaningless distinction to me)— amino acids in dairy & eggs have a measurably higher bioavailability than those in meat, whether ranked by the PDCAAS or DIAAS https://web.archive.org/web/20151010170125/http://www.idf-iso-analytical-week.org/Files/media/AW2013/T-van-Hoojidonk---Assessing-protein-quality-110613.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20151010170125/http://www.idf-is....
  - xexers 9y ago
    Compared to just eating the grains ourselves. For cattle, it takes 100 calories of grains to produce 10 calories of beef.
    - emusan 9y ago
      I think it's important to point out though that cattle can digest and "convert" a significantly wider variety of plant sources into meat. Our bodies simply can't digest a lot of what they can.
      - xexers 9y ago
        Sure... but it's also important to point out that while cattle "should" eat grass and can eat silage... 78% of beef in America comes from feedlot cattle[1]. On feedlots, the cattle are fed grains, not grass/silage... grains that we humans can easily eat like soy, corn, and barley [2]. 1. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nil-zacharias/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nil-zacharias/its-time-to-end... 2. http://www.goodfoodworld.com/2012/01/grass-fed-vs-feedlot-beef-whats-the-difference/ http://www.goodfoodworld.com/2012/01/grass-fed-vs-feedlot-be...
        jjeaff 9y ago
        None of those cows are raised on feedlots. Feedlots are used to fatten and "finish" the beef. Most all cattle start their life being grass fed.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - luisramalho 9y ago
    > Er, compared to what? I meant compared to lab-grown meat, as most of the energy from food is not used for building muscles but rather for the brain.
    - chrisseaton 9y ago
      > I meant compared to lab-grown meat How are you able to say this? Have you seen any data about how efficient lab-grown mean is to produce?
on_and_off 9y ago
As a non vegetarian that tries to consume as much ethically produced food as possible, I completely agree. Same taste and no ethical issue ? I am ready to pay a big premium for that.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Would you eat steaks made from cultured human cells? It would taste like pork and have exactly the nutrients humans need.
  - llukas 9y ago
    Also all the pathogens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      We'd leave out the nerve cells, of course.
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    Well, as far as ethics go .. I am not hurting anybody or anything if I eat meat cultured from cells. So the objection would be because it is a cultural taboo (and as others have mentioned, would it be safe ?) .
  - King-Aaron 9y ago
    I don't see the need to make the distinction - if you could readily grow animal cells for food, why even consider eating your own? Morally speaking, yeah sure. Practically speaking, no?
gooseus 9y ago
I'm curious if the lab-grown meat will truly be ethical, which I suppose depends on your definition of ethics with regard to preserving life. What exactly are the processes by which animal meat is grown and what kind of resources are required? I assume whatever sauce they're grown in is both a trade secret and also not just sugar water with some protein powder mixed in... If the process of growing meat in a vat requires vast amounts of amino acids that need to be either extracted from another natural source (or else needs to be synthesized in a precursor process) then how much is known about the negative impact of that resource extraction and/or synthesis? Will a pound of lab-grown meat use less water than a pound of comparable nature-grown meat? And if not, is it more ethical to prevent the killing of farm animals or prevent the continued waste of our most precious natural resource? I'm well aware of the negative impact of factory farming, but you already have options for spending more on meat for non-factory farmed meats (at least we do in the NW of USA) and I somehow doubt the economics will scale to where McD is gonna be able to sell $2 double-cheeseburgers using lab grown meat. Is this really going to move the needle, or just make some rich people to feel better about themselves? I know vegans who have no qualms eating tofu despite the damage that the soy industry has done to entire species[0]... is reducing the suffering of farm animals actually more ethical than preserving the overall biodiversity of our planet? So how do the lab-grown meats actually measure up in that context? That's really my main question here. I, obviously, have my doubts that it measures well and have been advocating for an increase in entomophagy (eating crickets, mealworms, soldier fly larvae, etc) which provide comparable protein/nutrient profiles to farm meats while requiring a fraction of the inputs (notably water and land) and a massive decrease in the sentient suffering of the protein source (most are just put into hibernation and don't wake up). I haven't made one yet, but I think a 50/50 ethical-beef/mealworm burger will probably be great with the right seasoning and would be cheaper to make (at scale), more ethical and still provide comparable nutrition. [0] http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/impacts/ http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/im...
- samirillian 9y ago
  In the words of Aristotle, "it is necessary to stop." You start with empathy and common sense, and remain open to new information, but realize at some point you gotta sign off and just make whatever you consider the most ethical choice; this includes balancing how much you feel it worthwhile to worry about an essentially "negative" decision vs. other positive possibilities. With respect to environmental harm, these are usually accidents of bad practices more than necessities of, say, eating tofu. Thus far, killing animals has been pretty closely tied to eating their flesh. Separating those two is also exciting to me.

luisramalho 9y ago

Totally agree, plus animals are extremely inefficient meat producers.

drb91 9y ago
Er, compared to what? Animals may not be an energy efficient food, but they are the only way to get meat.
- akgerber 9y ago
  Eating non-animal foods and producing meat (muscle) inside your body.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jriot 9y ago
    It is far more efficient to eat animals and produce muscle. There aren't many world renowned athletes who are vegan for obvious reasons.
    - marcc 9y ago
      Will you elaborate on the obvious reasons? Pretend they aren't obvious to me. I'm interested in reading more about athletic advantages gained from consuming meat. Is there a reason that other sources of protein aren't giving the same benefit?
      - jriot 9y ago
        Here is a good article breaking it all down along with the amounts you would need to eat to get the same benefit. https://www.muscleforlife.com/animal-protein-vs-plant-protein/ https://www.muscleforlife.com/animal-protein-vs-plant-protei...
        gruez 9y ago
        efficiency in that context means from a global of view, not how much time you're spending eating.
    - rsynnott 9y ago
      I assume they mean efficiency as in land area used etc. You have to put quite a lot of calories into a cow to get one calorie out.
      - jriot 9y ago
        https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-friendly-as-you-think/ https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt-as-environmentally-fr... Being vegan is that efficient either.
        tgb 9y ago
        That's a poor summary of the article you link, given that it says vegan diets are almost twice as efficient as the standard American diet. (It just also says that low-meat diets are even more efficient in terms of land use.)
    - mdarens 9y ago
      seeing as how veganism is not the default choice in most of the industrialized world, this is a misleading frame. it's also incorrect that it's more efficient to "eat animals" to produce muscle if we're being pedantic (as a vegetarian, however, this is not a meaningless distinction to me)— amino acids in dairy & eggs have a measurably higher bioavailability than those in meat, whether ranked by the PDCAAS or DIAAS https://web.archive.org/web/20151010170125/http://www.idf-iso-analytical-week.org/Files/media/AW2013/T-van-Hoojidonk---Assessing-protein-quality-110613.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20151010170125/http://www.idf-is....
- xexers 9y ago
  Compared to just eating the grains ourselves. For cattle, it takes 100 calories of grains to produce 10 calories of beef.
  - emusan 9y ago
    I think it's important to point out though that cattle can digest and "convert" a significantly wider variety of plant sources into meat. Our bodies simply can't digest a lot of what they can.
    - xexers 9y ago
      Sure... but it's also important to point out that while cattle "should" eat grass and can eat silage... 78% of beef in America comes from feedlot cattle[1]. On feedlots, the cattle are fed grains, not grass/silage... grains that we humans can easily eat like soy, corn, and barley [2]. 1. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nil-zacharias/its-time-to-end-factory-f_b_1018840.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nil-zacharias/its-time-to-end... 2. http://www.goodfoodworld.com/2012/01/grass-fed-vs-feedlot-beef-whats-the-difference/ http://www.goodfoodworld.com/2012/01/grass-fed-vs-feedlot-be...
      - jjeaff 9y ago
        None of those cows are raised on feedlots. Feedlots are used to fatten and "finish" the beef. Most all cattle start their life being grass fed.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- luisramalho 9y ago
  > Er, compared to what? I meant compared to lab-grown meat, as most of the energy from food is not used for building muscles but rather for the brain.
  - chrisseaton 9y ago
    > I meant compared to lab-grown meat How are you able to say this? Have you seen any data about how efficient lab-grown mean is to produce?

on_and_off 9y ago

As a non vegetarian that tries to consume as much ethically produced food as possible, I completely agree. Same taste and no ethical issue ? I am ready to pay a big premium for that.

stcredzero 9y ago
Would you eat steaks made from cultured human cells? It would taste like pork and have exactly the nutrients humans need.
- llukas 9y ago
  Also all the pathogens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease)
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    We'd leave out the nerve cells, of course.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  Well, as far as ethics go .. I am not hurting anybody or anything if I eat meat cultured from cells. So the objection would be because it is a cultural taboo (and as others have mentioned, would it be safe ?) .
- King-Aaron 9y ago
  I don't see the need to make the distinction - if you could readily grow animal cells for food, why even consider eating your own? Morally speaking, yeah sure. Practically speaking, no?

gooseus 9y ago

I'm curious if the lab-grown meat will truly be ethical, which I suppose depends on your definition of ethics with regard to preserving life. What exactly are the processes by which animal meat is grown and what kind of resources are required? I assume whatever sauce they're grown in is both a trade secret and also not just sugar water with some protein powder mixed in... If the process of growing meat in a vat requires vast amounts of amino acids that need to be either extracted from another natural source (or else needs to be synthesized in a precursor process) then how much is known about the negative impact of that resource extraction and/or synthesis? Will a pound of lab-grown meat use less water than a pound of comparable nature-grown meat? And if not, is it more ethical to prevent the killing of farm animals or prevent the continued waste of our most precious natural resource? I'm well aware of the negative impact of factory farming, but you already have options for spending more on meat for non-factory farmed meats (at least we do in the NW of USA) and I somehow doubt the economics will scale to where McD is gonna be able to sell $2 double-cheeseburgers using lab grown meat. Is this really going to move the needle, or just make some rich people to feel better about themselves? I know vegans who have no qualms eating tofu despite the damage that the soy industry has done to entire species[0]... is reducing the suffering of farm animals actually more ethical than preserving the overall biodiversity of our planet? So how do the lab-grown meats actually measure up in that context? That's really my main question here. I, obviously, have my doubts that it measures well and have been advocating for an increase in entomophagy (eating crickets, mealworms, soldier fly larvae, etc) which provide comparable protein/nutrient profiles to farm meats while requiring a fraction of the inputs (notably water and land) and a massive decrease in the sentient suffering of the protein source (most are just put into hibernation and don't wake up). I haven't made one yet, but I think a 50/50 ethical-beef/mealworm burger will probably be great with the right seasoning and would be cheaper to make (at scale), more ethical and still provide comparable nutrition. [0] http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/impacts/ http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/footprint/agriculture/soy/im...

samirillian 9y ago
In the words of Aristotle, "it is necessary to stop." You start with empathy and common sense, and remain open to new information, but realize at some point you gotta sign off and just make whatever you consider the most ethical choice; this includes balancing how much you feel it worthwhile to worry about an essentially "negative" decision vs. other positive possibilities. With respect to environmental harm, these are usually accidents of bad practices more than necessities of, say, eating tofu. Thus far, killing animals has been pretty closely tied to eating their flesh. Separating those two is also exciting to me.