7 ms·

This article makes me wonder, what, exactly, is wrong and what is supposed to be done about this. I get that it seems exploitative and probably does have conseq

This article makes me wonder, what, exactly, is wrong and what is supposed to be done about this. I get that it seems exploitative and probably does have consequences for social attitudes at work, but what I don't understand is what's to be done about this? Surely there's nothing (drug use aside) that's legally actionable about this. The encounters seemed consensual in the sense that the women weren't threatened or forced and were told about what the drugs offered would do. If there's not any legal wrong doing then is it social misconduct? Somehow it feels wrong for me to judge or condemn adults for their sexual conduct - even if it seems cheap, transactional, and gross to me. I understand different people have different values and preferences, so why should I apply mine to them? Furthermore, I can't imagine that finger wagging from the likes of Vanity Fair is going to make these rich young men give up on their drug fueled sex parties. It's an interesting article, even though the author is decidedly biased and at times intentionally misleading (e.g. when she scorns the idea that there are some/many women interested in taking advantage of men, in the middle of an article about rich nerds finding themselves suddenly with a surfeit of women). I don't understand what is supposed to be done about this though or even if something should be aside from educating young women about the tradeoffs they may make in these environments.

tathougies 9y ago
The entire article was on how these interactions are facilitated by the intentional use of illegal, mind-altering drugs. Aside from the obvious fact that the drugs are illegal, there is also the question of whether those who are under the influence of these drugs can consent to sex.
- ImSkeptical 9y ago
  I think if you consent to go to the sex party, you consent to physical romantic activity, you consent to taking the drug knowing your context and what the drug will do, and then you consent to sex throughout the experience, it's hard to see how it's anything but consensual. If you have a colonoscopy done, the medication they give you will make it so you don't remember things or (I hope) feel things, but, my doctor told me, you will still respond to instructions like "roll on your side" etc. If I consent to go to the doctor's office, and have the IV after it's explained to me what the drug does, and then they give me the drug and I have the procedure, am I consenting to the procedure even though I'm very much impaired during the process? I'd say so.
  - mannykannot 9y ago
    On what basis do you ignore the events that, as reported in the article, were not as consensual as you suggest here?
    - ImSkeptical 9y ago
      Can you explain further, please? Which events reported in the article were not consensual?
      - mannykannot 9y ago
        My mistake - on rereading the article, I see that while there was one example of a refusal of consent being ignored, the activity being reported is, in general, consensual.
        ImSkeptical 9y ago
        No problem. Thanks for clarifying. I fully agree that any instance where a refusal is not respected is a problem.
  - lhnz 9y ago
    It would be non-consensual if you didn't give affirmative consent. However, reading this, it seems that affirmative consent was given at all times, first to taking drugs and then to making out (or having sex) so this article is basically just a hoo-hah over consenting adults engaging in drug-enabled group sex.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
      Rich men vastly outnumbered by 20 something women? The men are finally in positions of power and the women think that being in the ‘inner circle’ might open doors for them? In might be consensual in the sense that everyone said yes, but there’s a known balance of power. Sounds like coercion and naivety.
- creaghpatr 9y ago
  Recalls True Detective Season 2 when they infiltrate a similarly described (but likely dramatized version) party with Politicians instead of Tech players: [Midseason spoiler warning] "Bezzerides goes undercover, posing as Athena to infiltrate one of the secret elite parties in Monterey. With no phone, transmitter or weapon, she is forced to rely on Woodrugh and Velcoro for support. At the party, she is drugged and taken to the guests with a busload of other girls. Her attempts to search the party are hampered by the male guests (Geldof, Holloway and Tony Chessani among them) and hallucinations of a strange man from her childhood, implying that she was sexually abused"...etc
- RobertoG 9y ago
  I suppose that it's a fair criticism. I imagine that if, even if they took the drugs voluntarily and with full knowledge it could be a problem. As the men also took the drug, we could make a powerful case that they are not consenting neither.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> This article makes me wonder, what, exactly, is wrong and what is supposed to be done about this. An article about cultural practices outside of the social norms doesn't have to imply that there is either something wrong or something that needs to be done about it. Different readers will think different aspects of it are wrong and have their own opinions about how, if at all, to respond to the things they see as wrong.
empath75 9y ago
As someone who did a lot of ecstasy in the late 90s, I’m skeptical about how much actual sex is happening at these ecstasy fueled parties. Back when I was going to ecstasy-fueled weekend-long after parties at peoples houses, there was a lot more talking, hugging and dancing happening than sex. I think people who haven’t tried ecstasy have a really skewed idea about how people behave on it. Mostly you just want to listen to music and dance and talk. You often couldn’t have sex even if you wanted to.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Back when I was going to ecstasy-fueled weekend-long after parties at peoples houses, there was a lot more talking, hugging and dancing happening than sex. I only ever attended one party with MDMA. After I took a 1/2 tab, I emerged from the kitchen thinking to myself, "I'm going to try and give a massage to every woman in this living room!" I never made it past the cute med student who took the other 1/2 of the tab, and we both left the party with the illusion that we had just found our soul mates, then proceeded to have a 2 week relationship that suddenly evaporated. I think that was 1999. It's confusing to talk about these things, because "ecstasy" or "E" means something very different today than what it referred to back then.
  - empath75 9y ago
    Afaik, ‘real’ ecstasy is still pure mdma, though obviously it’s sometimes adulterated. At least in the late 90s when we used test kits it was pure mdma that we were intending to buy. Barring some actual test kit results, i wouldn’t take people’s self reports of what they’re taking as being reliable, because people’s response to mdma seems to change a lot with repeated use.
    - stcredzero 9y ago
      Afaik, ‘real’ ecstasy is still pure mdma Some young folks have tried to tell me that GHB == "ecstasy."

tathougies 9y ago

The entire article was on how these interactions are facilitated by the intentional use of illegal, mind-altering drugs. Aside from the obvious fact that the drugs are illegal, there is also the question of whether those who are under the influence of these drugs can consent to sex.

ImSkeptical 9y ago
I think if you consent to go to the sex party, you consent to physical romantic activity, you consent to taking the drug knowing your context and what the drug will do, and then you consent to sex throughout the experience, it's hard to see how it's anything but consensual. If you have a colonoscopy done, the medication they give you will make it so you don't remember things or (I hope) feel things, but, my doctor told me, you will still respond to instructions like "roll on your side" etc. If I consent to go to the doctor's office, and have the IV after it's explained to me what the drug does, and then they give me the drug and I have the procedure, am I consenting to the procedure even though I'm very much impaired during the process? I'd say so.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  On what basis do you ignore the events that, as reported in the article, were not as consensual as you suggest here?
  - ImSkeptical 9y ago
    Can you explain further, please? Which events reported in the article were not consensual?
    - mannykannot 9y ago
      My mistake - on rereading the article, I see that while there was one example of a refusal of consent being ignored, the activity being reported is, in general, consensual.
      - ImSkeptical 9y ago
        No problem. Thanks for clarifying. I fully agree that any instance where a refusal is not respected is a problem.
- lhnz 9y ago
  It would be non-consensual if you didn't give affirmative consent. However, reading this, it seems that affirmative consent was given at all times, first to taking drugs and then to making out (or having sex) so this article is basically just a hoo-hah over consenting adults engaging in drug-enabled group sex.
  - 2muchcoffeeman 9y ago
    Rich men vastly outnumbered by 20 something women? The men are finally in positions of power and the women think that being in the ‘inner circle’ might open doors for them? In might be consensual in the sense that everyone said yes, but there’s a known balance of power. Sounds like coercion and naivety.
creaghpatr 9y ago
Recalls True Detective Season 2 when they infiltrate a similarly described (but likely dramatized version) party with Politicians instead of Tech players: [Midseason spoiler warning] "Bezzerides goes undercover, posing as Athena to infiltrate one of the secret elite parties in Monterey. With no phone, transmitter or weapon, she is forced to rely on Woodrugh and Velcoro for support. At the party, she is drugged and taken to the guests with a busload of other girls. Her attempts to search the party are hampered by the male guests (Geldof, Holloway and Tony Chessani among them) and hallucinations of a strange man from her childhood, implying that she was sexually abused"...etc
RobertoG 9y ago
I suppose that it's a fair criticism. I imagine that if, even if they took the drugs voluntarily and with full knowledge it could be a problem. As the men also took the drug, we could make a powerful case that they are not consenting neither.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> This article makes me wonder, what, exactly, is wrong and what is supposed to be done about this. An article about cultural practices outside of the social norms doesn't have to imply that there is either something wrong or something that needs to be done about it. Different readers will think different aspects of it are wrong and have their own opinions about how, if at all, to respond to the things they see as wrong.

empath75 9y ago

As someone who did a lot of ecstasy in the late 90s, I’m skeptical about how much actual sex is happening at these ecstasy fueled parties. Back when I was going to ecstasy-fueled weekend-long after parties at peoples houses, there was a lot more talking, hugging and dancing happening than sex. I think people who haven’t tried ecstasy have a really skewed idea about how people behave on it. Mostly you just want to listen to music and dance and talk. You often couldn’t have sex even if you wanted to.

stcredzero 9y ago
Back when I was going to ecstasy-fueled weekend-long after parties at peoples houses, there was a lot more talking, hugging and dancing happening than sex. I only ever attended one party with MDMA. After I took a 1/2 tab, I emerged from the kitchen thinking to myself, "I'm going to try and give a massage to every woman in this living room!" I never made it past the cute med student who took the other 1/2 of the tab, and we both left the party with the illusion that we had just found our soul mates, then proceeded to have a 2 week relationship that suddenly evaporated. I think that was 1999. It's confusing to talk about these things, because "ecstasy" or "E" means something very different today than what it referred to back then.
- empath75 9y ago
  Afaik, ‘real’ ecstasy is still pure mdma, though obviously it’s sometimes adulterated. At least in the late 90s when we used test kits it was pure mdma that we were intending to buy. Barring some actual test kit results, i wouldn’t take people’s self reports of what they’re taking as being reliable, because people’s response to mdma seems to change a lot with repeated use.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Afaik, ‘real’ ecstasy is still pure mdma Some young folks have tried to tell me that GHB == "ecstasy."