5 ms·

Possibly a lot of HN has been around the block for a couple of decades at this point, and has seen this web dev stuff come full circle several times, and before

Possibly a lot of HN has been around the block for a couple of decades at this point, and has seen this web dev stuff come full circle several times, and before that, the same ideas in desktop software. Computer science programs really need to introduce something like a "History of Computing Ideas" course as a mandatory element. Maybe we can get away from rehashing the same cycle of trends every five years and move onto some different wheels.

goatlover 9y ago
Are they going to also teach that at bootcamps?
Danihan 9y ago
I'm still waiting for my web framework in pure ASM idea to manifest.
OJFord 9y ago
> Computer science programs really need to introduce something like a "History of Computing Ideas" course as a mandatory element. Isn't that the whole programme? In my final year I had a couple of more advanced courses in which we could just about get our heads around results published by the lecturer four years ago when we started the programme. Everything else is just working up to that, from Boole's ideas; through Turing's and von Neumann's.
- megaman22 9y ago
  You're looking at this from a more academic perspective than my comment implied. Really, it's the whole clusterf&*^ of software engineering being conflated with computer science, when they are really not the same thing in any way. There is a lot of practical implementation history that people are often woefully ignorant of, and it leads them to tread the same paths over and over and over. - Here are the core GNU command line utilities; make, sed, grep, etc. They are battle-tested, use them, don't rewrite them a dozen times in JavaScript - Here is the progression of version control tools that people have used over time, and some reasons why we've moved on from SourceSafe and rcs to Git. - Here's the history of how people have done databases, flat-file, vs sql vs nosql - etc, etc, etc.
  - OJFord 9y ago
    Ah, I see what you mean. Apologies, I didn't mean to digress from the spirit of your comment, I suppose it just varies with experience: of the things mentioned, including web frameworks, I _did_ hear of the history of how people have done databases, but other than that GNU tools are just things I used to get the work done, and I learned git through open source. (Though I think it would make a great 'stuff you've learned put into practice' talk: diff algorithms, data structures, etc.)
cookiecaper 9y ago
Yes, though I think we need to diffuse the sentiment via organic cultural osmosis rather than relying on ivory towers to indoctrinate for us (not effective). Alan Kay frequently laments the direction of the computer industry, calling computing "not-quite-a-field" and "pop culture". From an interview in 2012: Quote: ---- > Kay: [...] [I] happen to believe in history. The lack of interest, the disdain for history is what makes computing not-quite-a-field. > Binstock [interviewer]: You once referred to computing as pop culture. > Kay: It is. Complete pop culture. I'm not against pop culture. Developed music, for instance, needs a pop culture. [...] The big problem with our culture is that it's being dominated [more by] pop-culture content than it is for high-culture content. I consider jazz to be a developed part of high culture. Anything that's been worked on and developed and you [can] [sic] go to the next couple levels. [...] > [Kay continues]: [P]op culture holds a disdain for history. Pop culture is all about identity and feeling like you're participating. It has nothing to do with cooperation, the past or the future — it's living in the present. I think the same is true of most people who write code for money. They have no idea where [their culture came from]. [sic - brackets in original] --- It's a great summary of the programming fads that have come to characterize tech culture and how disappointing it is for anyone who is trying to navigate this field with some intent and presence of mind higher than fitting in with the crowd or cashing in on a perceived gold rush. It's also just a great memorialization of the concept of pop culture in general; pop culture is about a feeling of belonging and community, and engaging positive biological responses associated with social approval and community. It's something that people do to give themselves that rush of praise, and then retroactively try to justify. After a couple of years, no one can understand what anyone was thinking because they were just rationalizing riding the tide. And, IMO, it aptly describes not only the React phenomenon, but also Kubernetes (aka "shared hosting"), Docker (aka "static linking"), etc. Also IMO, big dollar players stoke this negative culture because it's profitable for them. It's not necessarily that these technologies won't leave their mark, it's just that they're not the revelations people pretend they are. Regardless, suspicion is always warranted when people insist that the contemporary is novel, in computing or practically anything else. [0] http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-with-alan-kay/240003442 http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-wit... \ archive: https://archive.fo/DkQOc https://archive.fo/DkQOc

goatlover 9y ago

Are they going to also teach that at bootcamps?

Danihan 9y ago

I'm still waiting for my web framework in pure ASM idea to manifest.

OJFord 9y ago

> Computer science programs really need to introduce something like a "History of Computing Ideas" course as a mandatory element. Isn't that the whole programme? In my final year I had a couple of more advanced courses in which we could just about get our heads around results published by the lecturer four years ago when we started the programme. Everything else is just working up to that, from Boole's ideas; through Turing's and von Neumann's.

megaman22 9y ago
You're looking at this from a more academic perspective than my comment implied. Really, it's the whole clusterf&*^ of software engineering being conflated with computer science, when they are really not the same thing in any way. There is a lot of practical implementation history that people are often woefully ignorant of, and it leads them to tread the same paths over and over and over. - Here are the core GNU command line utilities; make, sed, grep, etc. They are battle-tested, use them, don't rewrite them a dozen times in JavaScript - Here is the progression of version control tools that people have used over time, and some reasons why we've moved on from SourceSafe and rcs to Git. - Here's the history of how people have done databases, flat-file, vs sql vs nosql - etc, etc, etc.
- OJFord 9y ago
  Ah, I see what you mean. Apologies, I didn't mean to digress from the spirit of your comment, I suppose it just varies with experience: of the things mentioned, including web frameworks, I _did_ hear of the history of how people have done databases, but other than that GNU tools are just things I used to get the work done, and I learned git through open source. (Though I think it would make a great 'stuff you've learned put into practice' talk: diff algorithms, data structures, etc.)

cookiecaper 9y ago

Yes, though I think we need to diffuse the sentiment via organic cultural osmosis rather than relying on ivory towers to indoctrinate for us (not effective). Alan Kay frequently laments the direction of the computer industry, calling computing "not-quite-a-field" and "pop culture". From an interview in 2012: Quote: ---- > Kay: [...] [I] happen to believe in history. The lack of interest, the disdain for history is what makes computing not-quite-a-field. > Binstock [interviewer]: You once referred to computing as pop culture. > Kay: It is. Complete pop culture. I'm not against pop culture. Developed music, for instance, needs a pop culture. [...] The big problem with our culture is that it's being dominated [more by] pop-culture content than it is for high-culture content. I consider jazz to be a developed part of high culture. Anything that's been worked on and developed and you [can] [sic] go to the next couple levels. [...] > [Kay continues]: [P]op culture holds a disdain for history. Pop culture is all about identity and feeling like you're participating. It has nothing to do with cooperation, the past or the future — it's living in the present. I think the same is true of most people who write code for money. They have no idea where [their culture came from]. [sic - brackets in original] --- It's a great summary of the programming fads that have come to characterize tech culture and how disappointing it is for anyone who is trying to navigate this field with some intent and presence of mind higher than fitting in with the crowd or cashing in on a perceived gold rush. It's also just a great memorialization of the concept of pop culture in general; pop culture is about a feeling of belonging and community, and engaging positive biological responses associated with social approval and community. It's something that people do to give themselves that rush of praise, and then retroactively try to justify. After a couple of years, no one can understand what anyone was thinking because they were just rationalizing riding the tide. And, IMO, it aptly describes not only the React phenomenon, but also Kubernetes (aka "shared hosting"), Docker (aka "static linking"), etc. Also IMO, big dollar players stoke this negative culture because it's profitable for them. It's not necessarily that these technologies won't leave their mark, it's just that they're not the revelations people pretend they are. Regardless, suspicion is always warranted when people insist that the contemporary is novel, in computing or practically anything else. [0] http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-with-alan-kay/240003442 http://www.drdobbs.com/architecture-and-design/interview-wit... \ archive: https://archive.fo/DkQOc https://archive.fo/DkQOc