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Richmond, Indiana is a case in point for the American view. In the late 60's there was a huge gas explosion here, destroying three blocks of the downtown. (It

by Vivtek 16y ago

Richmond, Indiana is a case in point for the American view. In the late 60's there was a huge gas explosion here, destroying three blocks of the downtown. (It was unfortunate that the gas leak was under the sporting goods store that sold ammo, and no I'm not making this up.) During the reconstruction, they decided to make the main drag a pedestrian-only zone; lots of beautiful old storefronts and so on, and so they bricked it in and called it the Promenade. About ten years ago, they gave it up for a failed experiment. Due to the lack of parking, the stores there failed one by one (the big boxes on the edge of town didn't help). More recent studies showed that the only pedestrian zones that worked in smaller American cities are the ones adjacent to college campuses, where you've got lots of free-range money whose cars are elsewhere. It was freaking weird getting back to town a couple of years ago and driving down the Promenade. It hasn't much helped the local stores, either; I think it was too late. But the European ideal of the nice leafy pedestrian zones with cafes and stuff didn't happen here, unfortunately.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
It hasn't much helped the local stores, either; I think it was too late. As you say, allowing cars on the promenade hasn't helped. And big box stores have beaten the smaller local businesses in plenty of other towns. So why do you attribute the failure of the downtown to the pedestrian only zones rather than to competition?
- w1ntermute 16y ago
  Like he said, it was too late. You don't know that the results would have been different if the stores on the promenade had been able to compete with the big box stores.
  - blahedo 16y ago
    No, but you can run a natural experiment: look at towns of similar size (let's say 30k-50k) that had shops downtown and competition from big box stores on the outskirts, but did not block cars from the downtown stores, and see what happened there. Answer: there are a few towns that retained or have regrown a vibrant downtown (I live in one), but not many. Most small cities have a downtown that is either functionally a ghost town, or that has been converted to low-traffic uses (like lawyers' offices). Though not a certainty, it's a pretty fair conclusion that the bricked pedestrian mall is not what killed Richmond's downtown.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Well, that's hard to say, really, and I'm certainly not saying it was the only factor. But if I look at other small Indiana towns I know, I can think of several with central squares that are still doing well (Paoli springs to mind, or Winchester), and New Castle's downtown died when the state closed down the street for construction for a year. (Statewide mandates for width of state roads - they took out trees along the street, one of which my kindergarten class had collected money to pay for. Oy.) And certainly Richmond's overall economic decline started in the 30's and hasn't really gotten any better since then. But my overall point is that pedestrian zones don't automatically turn into cafe-laden paradises, as much as we'd all like that to happen, and in America in particular that's less likely to happen than in Europe, largely (imho) due to our much lower density of population - itself due in part to automobile addiction.
MC27 16y ago
The good thing about old European cities is they weren't designed for cars and they've grown organically. The Prince of Wales has been attempting to build a new town using similar principles in England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundbury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundbury
- ugh 16y ago
  As much as I love the Renaissance buildings in my hometown (which are actual Renaissance buildings), building old looking stuff just seems, well, kitschy. The whole effort seems to at least partly be a bona fide cargo cult ;-) It’s very much possible to build high density walkable towns using contemporary architecture [+]. You don’t have to fake it. [+] http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/earth/12suburb.html?_r=3&em http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/earth/12suburb.htm...
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    Speaking for myself, architecture that doesn't look like glass shoeboxes is anything but kitschy. Although I'll give you the cargo-cult point. I just saw some new construction going up in Budapest along the river that is based heavily on the 19th-century architecture of much of the rest of the city. It still has a couple of airy glass walls, but some of the building was good solid brick with the staggered stone window facing that's so typical of most of Pest. I thought it was fantastic. (My wife, the Hungarian, was unimpressed; indeed, I'm not even sure she understand what point I was trying to make about it. Ah well.)
ugh 16y ago
I think it has a lot to do with different city structures. The old city center in my town really is old – as in older than half a millennium. Cars can somehow drive through it but it was never really optimized for that. There are more than enough streets which allow the traffic to drive comfortably around it. Closing the city center itself for traffic consequently doesn’t cause a lot of problems. Providing enough parking space seems important, though. My hometown has two large parking lots just outside the city center (you have to walk maybe 300 meters), two parking garages (500 meters) and a underground parking garage (100 meters). I don’t think the city center would work as well as it does without all those parking spaces. (Those parking spaces are all owned by the city and they will all cost you some money.)
masterj 16y ago
I'm guessing that there were few people living there? The idea is people walk out their door and find amenities like cafes and grocers within a few blocks. If people have to drive, park, then walk into a pedestrian zone, then many will choose to go elsewhere.
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Lots of people live within walking distance of the Promenade - unfortunately they're all unemployed. It's the absolute worst of both worlds here; all the endemic poverty and crime of a big city, without any of the cultural and economic advantages. So the Promenade was doubtlessly doomed to failure anyway. Sad. I actually lived on a third-floor walkup above it for a year or two. I'm almost positive we were the only people who actually lived on the Promenade at the time. I certainly never saw any others. But there is a fine historical neighborhood two streets north and five east (the one where my current mansion is located) - populated by drunkards, the mentally ill, and drug dealers. Along with a few working poor, and me. Sigh. Sometimes, a place can have too much character.

by Vivtek 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

It hasn't much helped the local stores, either; I think it was too late. As you say, allowing cars on the promenade hasn't helped. And big box stores have beaten the smaller local businesses in plenty of other towns. So why do you attribute the failure of the downtown to the pedestrian only zones rather than to competition?

w1ntermute 16y ago
Like he said, it was too late. You don't know that the results would have been different if the stores on the promenade had been able to compete with the big box stores.
- blahedo 16y ago
  No, but you can run a natural experiment: look at towns of similar size (let's say 30k-50k) that had shops downtown and competition from big box stores on the outskirts, but did not block cars from the downtown stores, and see what happened there. Answer: there are a few towns that retained or have regrown a vibrant downtown (I live in one), but not many. Most small cities have a downtown that is either functionally a ghost town, or that has been converted to low-traffic uses (like lawyers' offices). Though not a certainty, it's a pretty fair conclusion that the bricked pedestrian mall is not what killed Richmond's downtown.
Vivtek 16y ago
Well, that's hard to say, really, and I'm certainly not saying it was the only factor. But if I look at other small Indiana towns I know, I can think of several with central squares that are still doing well (Paoli springs to mind, or Winchester), and New Castle's downtown died when the state closed down the street for construction for a year. (Statewide mandates for width of state roads - they took out trees along the street, one of which my kindergarten class had collected money to pay for. Oy.) And certainly Richmond's overall economic decline started in the 30's and hasn't really gotten any better since then. But my overall point is that pedestrian zones don't automatically turn into cafe-laden paradises, as much as we'd all like that to happen, and in America in particular that's less likely to happen than in Europe, largely (imho) due to our much lower density of population - itself due in part to automobile addiction.

MC27 16y ago

The good thing about old European cities is they weren't designed for cars and they've grown organically. The Prince of Wales has been attempting to build a new town using similar principles in England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundbury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poundbury

ugh 16y ago
As much as I love the Renaissance buildings in my hometown (which are actual Renaissance buildings), building old looking stuff just seems, well, kitschy. The whole effort seems to at least partly be a bona fide cargo cult ;-) It’s very much possible to build high density walkable towns using contemporary architecture [+]. You don’t have to fake it. [+] http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/earth/12suburb.html?_r=3&em http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/science/earth/12suburb.htm...
- Vivtek 16y ago
  Speaking for myself, architecture that doesn't look like glass shoeboxes is anything but kitschy. Although I'll give you the cargo-cult point. I just saw some new construction going up in Budapest along the river that is based heavily on the 19th-century architecture of much of the rest of the city. It still has a couple of airy glass walls, but some of the building was good solid brick with the staggered stone window facing that's so typical of most of Pest. I thought it was fantastic. (My wife, the Hungarian, was unimpressed; indeed, I'm not even sure she understand what point I was trying to make about it. Ah well.)

ugh 16y ago

I think it has a lot to do with different city structures. The old city center in my town really is old – as in older than half a millennium. Cars can somehow drive through it but it was never really optimized for that. There are more than enough streets which allow the traffic to drive comfortably around it. Closing the city center itself for traffic consequently doesn’t cause a lot of problems. Providing enough parking space seems important, though. My hometown has two large parking lots just outside the city center (you have to walk maybe 300 meters), two parking garages (500 meters) and a underground parking garage (100 meters). I don’t think the city center would work as well as it does without all those parking spaces. (Those parking spaces are all owned by the city and they will all cost you some money.)

masterj 16y ago

I'm guessing that there were few people living there? The idea is people walk out their door and find amenities like cafes and grocers within a few blocks. If people have to drive, park, then walk into a pedestrian zone, then many will choose to go elsewhere.

Vivtek 16y ago
Lots of people live within walking distance of the Promenade - unfortunately they're all unemployed. It's the absolute worst of both worlds here; all the endemic poverty and crime of a big city, without any of the cultural and economic advantages. So the Promenade was doubtlessly doomed to failure anyway. Sad. I actually lived on a third-floor walkup above it for a year or two. I'm almost positive we were the only people who actually lived on the Promenade at the time. I certainly never saw any others. But there is a fine historical neighborhood two streets north and five east (the one where my current mansion is located) - populated by drunkards, the mentally ill, and drug dealers. Along with a few working poor, and me. Sigh. Sometimes, a place can have too much character.