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Classic trams and modern light rail are different beasts. Trams were popular worldwide back in the days where automobiles were far too expensive for most peopl

Classic trams and modern light rail are different beasts. Trams were popular worldwide back in the days where automobiles were far too expensive for most people and buses hadn't taken off yet, and since they were the only practical means of transport for medium distances, even small cities had massive ridership. They also ran right on the road, sharing space with cars, which was OK because there were a lot less cars and cars were not meaningful competition. These days cars are affordable, and light rail has to be better than cars to be competitive, and do so well enough to entice a significant portion of the population out of their cars to be affordable. In practice this means dedicated right of way, which is far more expensive to purchase and fit out as a rail line than just laying some rails on an existing street. And of course modern safety, environmental and just plain bureaucratic regulations also inflate the prices of public works considerably compared to the good/bad old days, particularly in the US.

Doxin 9y ago
> They also ran right on the road Sidenote: so do many modern tram systems.
- jpatokal 9y ago
  Sure, but sharing right of way with cars is slow, dangerous and generally avoided whenever feasible.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    Yes, has all the disadvantages of a bus system with the added disadvantage that changing routes is tremendously expensive since you need to lay new track.
    - justinhj 9y ago
      See SF’s muni train for an example of this double disadvantage. the trains run slowly and unpredictably stopping at red lights with the traffic
    - flukus 9y ago
      > with the added disadvantage that changing routes is tremendously expensive since you need to lay new track. That disadvantage is actually a good thing when you're buying real estate, a bus route can change but my tram stop has much more permanence. It also doesn't have to be an either/or thing, my local trams are dedicated in large parts but on road where congestion is lighter.
Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
Yes, that's a very good summary of what happened. I'm aware of those factors, but I still think we took a wrong turn. Maybe not in the US due to the population sparsity and sprawl, but in Spain and many other European countries, if we could connect every town or city of more than 10K people by either rail, light rail or tram (instead of having spent billions on highways), that would cover 80% of the population. A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile. Pollution and emissions would be much less of a problem, and quality of life in cities much better. But that's what happens with gradient descent, it can lead you to a local minimum...
- toyg 9y ago
  If it can make you feel better, I know a lot of Italian cities are going back to trams in dedicated lanes. This is on the back of the clear advantages enjoyed by those cities (Rome, Milan) who didn't actually rip out all tracks after the last war. There is an element of busywork too: local officials are always elected by promising change, they have to be seen doing something. So on odd years they put in something, and in even years they take it out...
- golergka 9y ago
  > A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile. They wouldn't need it, but I bet that majority would still want it.
  - lmm 9y ago
    In Europe? I doubt it. The car doesn't quite have the same cultural significance as a symbol of adulthood/independence here, at least not to the younger generation.
    - wott 9y ago
      That's what they pretend. However, the reality is this: * car sales do not drop, they oscillate depending on various governments subventions; * vehicle fleet keeps rising (albeit slowly because the market is saturated); * car owning per household has always been and is still on the rise (despite household size constantly decreasing); * the distance travelled with cars keeps rising as well. And visually, the amount of cars parked in the streets and along roadsides becomes insane. You already thought it was full 30 years ago, but now it is fuller. Oh, and the cars become bigger every year. Not American-big, but still, on the way to it. For example, pickup trucks never took off in the French countryside in the last 50 years, not a single bit; but for a couple of years, it has started :-/
micheljansen 9y ago
Interesting take. Where I live (The Hague, Netherlands), trams are slowly turning into light rail systems. Where trams historically shared the roads with cars, they are now increasingly running on separate tracks (elevated or otherwise). This allows for different kinds of (more comfortable) trains, because they do not need to be built for collisions with cars.

Doxin 9y ago

> They also ran right on the road Sidenote: so do many modern tram systems.

jpatokal 9y ago
Sure, but sharing right of way with cars is slow, dangerous and generally avoided whenever feasible.
- ams6110 9y ago
  Yes, has all the disadvantages of a bus system with the added disadvantage that changing routes is tremendously expensive since you need to lay new track.
  - justinhj 9y ago
    See SF’s muni train for an example of this double disadvantage. the trains run slowly and unpredictably stopping at red lights with the traffic
  - flukus 9y ago
    > with the added disadvantage that changing routes is tremendously expensive since you need to lay new track. That disadvantage is actually a good thing when you're buying real estate, a bus route can change but my tram stop has much more permanence. It also doesn't have to be an either/or thing, my local trams are dedicated in large parts but on road where congestion is lighter.

Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago

Yes, that's a very good summary of what happened. I'm aware of those factors, but I still think we took a wrong turn. Maybe not in the US due to the population sparsity and sprawl, but in Spain and many other European countries, if we could connect every town or city of more than 10K people by either rail, light rail or tram (instead of having spent billions on highways), that would cover 80% of the population. A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile. Pollution and emissions would be much less of a problem, and quality of life in cities much better. But that's what happens with gradient descent, it can lead you to a local minimum...

toyg 9y ago
If it can make you feel better, I know a lot of Italian cities are going back to trams in dedicated lanes. This is on the back of the clear advantages enjoyed by those cities (Rome, Milan) who didn't actually rip out all tracks after the last war. There is an element of busywork too: local officials are always elected by promising change, they have to be seen doing something. So on odd years they put in something, and in even years they take it out...
golergka 9y ago
> A large majority wouldn't need a car, and could instead use Uber-like services for the last mile. They wouldn't need it, but I bet that majority would still want it.
- lmm 9y ago
  In Europe? I doubt it. The car doesn't quite have the same cultural significance as a symbol of adulthood/independence here, at least not to the younger generation.
  - wott 9y ago
    That's what they pretend. However, the reality is this: * car sales do not drop, they oscillate depending on various governments subventions; * vehicle fleet keeps rising (albeit slowly because the market is saturated); * car owning per household has always been and is still on the rise (despite household size constantly decreasing); * the distance travelled with cars keeps rising as well. And visually, the amount of cars parked in the streets and along roadsides becomes insane. You already thought it was full 30 years ago, but now it is fuller. Oh, and the cars become bigger every year. Not American-big, but still, on the way to it. For example, pickup trucks never took off in the French countryside in the last 50 years, not a single bit; but for a couple of years, it has started :-/

micheljansen 9y ago

Interesting take. Where I live (The Hague, Netherlands), trams are slowly turning into light rail systems. Where trams historically shared the roads with cars, they are now increasingly running on separate tracks (elevated or otherwise). This allows for different kinds of (more comfortable) trains, because they do not need to be built for collisions with cars.