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You list one thing that happens to you that doesn't make the OS or windowing bad. OSX has the following UI issues: Scrollbars are hard to use Window Max & Mi

You list one thing that happens to you that doesn't make the OS or windowing bad. OSX has the following UI issues: Scrollbars are hard to use Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application file dialog can't do any of the things the window file can do (Create folders, manage files) Finders is pretty basic I won't mention right clicking accelerator keys are not as easy *System monitor is pretty non-helpful most times OSX shell is good, Windows 7 is the far better operating system. The hardware is also better but microsoft can force people to build awesome hardware

lsb 16y ago
Scrollbars being hard to use is mostly because most users have an easy time scrolling (laptops use the two-fingered scroll, mice all have buttons or touch-sensitive surfaces), and scrolling requires only mouseover not focus (try it! scroll the window behind you!). I've almost never used a scrollbar as an input mechanism, only output to see where in a document I am.
- jonknee 16y ago
  The scrollbars were bad well before Apple shipped a mouse with scrolling functionality.
apgwoz 16y ago
> Scrollbars are hard to use I can't tell you the last time I used a scrollbar at all. Wheels are a far better scrollbar interface, and come on 99% of new mice. Oh, and 2 finger scrolling on a touchpad is even better. > file dialog can't do any of the things the window file can do (Create folders, manage files) It can create folders, and it can also be configured (by the software) to have more functionality. I'd think that allowing all file management functionality from a "Save as..." dialog is a bad idea. New Folder and navigation should be all that's required. You shouldn't be able to decide to cleanup "My Documents" when your main goal is to save a file. > I won't mention right clicking I will. Right clicking is confusing in Windows because many a software hides some functionality in the Right-click context menu, but it never shows up in the "File Edit View" main menus. By eliminating right click on the Mac for novice users, and insisting in the HCI Guidelines that all functionality be accessible from the Main Menu, novice users can more easily discover the functionality they're looking for.
- Glide 16y ago
  As both a windows and mac user I have to agree with all of your points but the last one is probably the most important. The software ecosystem on os x is much nicer overall because of the guidelines that apple publishes. Most OS X applications look and feel in a similar way. It's also why iOS apps tend to behave the same way as well.
mclin 16y ago
Can only resize windows from the bottom corner no alt to access menu no double click window header toggles maximize That switch icon they use for 'option' confused me because it's not on the keyboard anywhere Overall it's pretty good, but I agree, I miss the little things
- blasdel 16y ago
  > no alt to access menu Hit Command-? (command-shift-/), start typing, and use the arrow keys to highlight the search results. You'll be surprised what happens. It's been there since 10.5
  - nileshk 16y ago
    Strangely, in Firefox, this brings up a new tab with a Firefox help page. Another option for getting to the menu is the "Move focus to the menu bar" keyboard shortcut which defaults to CTRL-F2, but is assignable. Neither of these methods are as direct as the Windows way, as you have to use cursor keys to move to where you want, but it works.
  - carussell 16y ago
    That doesn't even come close to as fast as Alt+accesskey, menu item accesskey.
ptomato 16y ago
"Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application" That's because what the button with the plus on it (Zoom) is doing is not supposed to be making the window the size of the screen, but rather making the window the size that will display the most content from the current window with the minimum of scrolling. Some applications ignore this and just use the standard Windows behavior, hence the inconsistency.
- moultano 16y ago
  In practice it seems that everyone loathes this behavior, hence the need for sites like http://maximizechrome.com/ http://maximizechrome.com/
  - ptomato 16y ago
    I prefer it for most things, actually, web browsers being one of the few exceptions depending on monitor size. There's usually absolutely no point in maximizing something to full screen on a 27" 2560x1440px display, for example. But for the times when I do want to I use Cinch (http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/cinch/ http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/cinch/) which steals my favorite Windows 7 feature.
nileshk 16y ago
> Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application In OS X I rarely use these buttons. "Minimize" is very rarely useful. If I want to get an app out of the way I use Hide (CMD-H). Hide Others (CMD-Option-H) is also useful for making the current app the only one visible. Minimize is only useful to me when I want to get a window out of the way within an application (but not get the application out of the way). For example, lets say I had multiple Terminal windows open, and there was one that I knew I wasn't going to use for a while, and I didn't want it to show up when I cycle through windows when I hit CMD-`, then I would hit CMD-M to minimize. (This is hypothetical, though, I don't use Terminal that way.) I admit the "Zoom" button (what you expect to be Maximize, but isn't) is rather inconsistent due to apps having different opinions on its usage (iTunes being one of the worst). If you want Windows-style maximize, you can use something like shiftit ( http://code.google.com/p/shiftit/ http://code.google.com/p/shiftit/ ) which gives you a keyboard shortcut for it. It also gives you Windows 7 style tiling and more tiling features. I have a fork of this open source project where I'm experimenting with being able to resize windows to percentages of the screen size using keyboard shortcuts: http://github.com/nileshk/shiftit http://github.com/nileshk/shiftit Also, checkout this company's non-free products: http://irradiatedsoftware.com/ http://irradiatedsoftware.com/ Going back to your previous post, I think Windows 7's taskbar misses the point (assuming it's trying to copy OS X). What is nice in OS X is the whole app switching model. In OS X, when you click on an app in the dock, you are switch to that app bringing up all the app's non-minimized windows, whereas in Windows you are always switching to a specific window but not to the app as a whole. While I use OS X's dock, I use QuickSilver to switch to apps even more, which gives me a more precise keyboard-based way of navigating to the app that I want, where I can literally switch to an app that I want without looking at the screen (more that I don't have to study the screen in this process, which makes it faster for me). Spotlight can be used similarly, though it doesn't handle Finder the same way as Quicksilver (can't switch to Finder with Spotlight). I don't use Expose because I find it takes to much time to find and pick out the window I am looking for. Honestly, it took me 2 years of owning a Mac before I preferred it over my previous preference (Linux). I think it's a mix of the fact that it is a UNIX and the polish and little details of OS X (there is a lot to both it's form and function). It takes time to appreciate, because it is significantly different than other popular environments. I'd like to know what is so great about Windows 7, but my experience with it so far has made me think it is just another Windows with some eye-candy (which is not to my taste) and some decent Window tiling features. But I have not been able to give it an honest chance, because one of the .Net projects I maintain requires XP.
jsz0 16y ago
Right clicking? I can quad and penta click on my Magic TrackPad. I think that argument can die now.
ajaimk 16y ago
Scrollbars are hard to use 2 finger scrolling on trackpads is much more intuitive and also, whats wrong with the scrollbar? I'm sitting here fiddling with the one on safari and still can't figure out anything wrong with it. Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application Window Max maximizes the screen to the maximum amount of space "needed". Though this might not feel great on a 13" macbook, move onto a 27" screen and you will understand WHY firefox taking up the entire screen is a plain simple waste of space. I won't mention right clicking You better not mention it, cause you do realize that on the mac it is called 2-finger-clicking. It exists. So, you mentioning it won't make much of a difference. The hardware is also better but microsoft can force people to build awesome hardware. People who love great software make their own hardware. Google did it for their servers. I used to use a dell laptop. Bought in 2007. Trashed in 2008. Replace by a mac. Its still on Warranty. Why you ask. 1 year and 4 months = 7th Motherboard, 2rd Screen, 5th Keyboard, 3rd hard drive. And my macbook pro, 1 year and 4 months later: NOTHING.
Locke1689 16y ago
Let's just keep it down to taste, OK? Saying that one OS is clearly better than another is just begging for a flame war. From a technical perspective I can tell you that you are wrong in many cases. For background, I use OS X as my primary system, develop for Linux and the kernel, and work for Microsoft.

lsb 16y ago

Scrollbars being hard to use is mostly because most users have an easy time scrolling (laptops use the two-fingered scroll, mice all have buttons or touch-sensitive surfaces), and scrolling requires only mouseover not focus (try it! scroll the window behind you!). I've almost never used a scrollbar as an input mechanism, only output to see where in a document I am.

jonknee 16y ago
The scrollbars were bad well before Apple shipped a mouse with scrolling functionality.

apgwoz 16y ago

> Scrollbars are hard to use I can't tell you the last time I used a scrollbar at all. Wheels are a far better scrollbar interface, and come on 99% of new mice. Oh, and 2 finger scrolling on a touchpad is even better. > file dialog can't do any of the things the window file can do (Create folders, manage files) It can create folders, and it can also be configured (by the software) to have more functionality. I'd think that allowing all file management functionality from a "Save as..." dialog is a bad idea. New Folder and navigation should be all that's required. You shouldn't be able to decide to cleanup "My Documents" when your main goal is to save a file. > I won't mention right clicking I will. Right clicking is confusing in Windows because many a software hides some functionality in the Right-click context menu, but it never shows up in the "File Edit View" main menus. By eliminating right click on the Mac for novice users, and insisting in the HCI Guidelines that all functionality be accessible from the Main Menu, novice users can more easily discover the functionality they're looking for.

Glide 16y ago
As both a windows and mac user I have to agree with all of your points but the last one is probably the most important. The software ecosystem on os x is much nicer overall because of the guidelines that apple publishes. Most OS X applications look and feel in a similar way. It's also why iOS apps tend to behave the same way as well.

mclin 16y ago

Can only resize windows from the bottom corner no alt to access menu no double click window header toggles maximize That switch icon they use for 'option' confused me because it's not on the keyboard anywhere Overall it's pretty good, but I agree, I miss the little things

blasdel 16y ago
> no alt to access menu Hit Command-? (command-shift-/), start typing, and use the arrow keys to highlight the search results. You'll be surprised what happens. It's been there since 10.5
- nileshk 16y ago
  Strangely, in Firefox, this brings up a new tab with a Firefox help page. Another option for getting to the menu is the "Move focus to the menu bar" keyboard shortcut which defaults to CTRL-F2, but is assignable. Neither of these methods are as direct as the Windows way, as you have to use cursor keys to move to where you want, but it works.
- carussell 16y ago
  That doesn't even come close to as fast as Alt+accesskey, menu item accesskey.

ptomato 16y ago

"Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application" That's because what the button with the plus on it (Zoom) is doing is not supposed to be making the window the size of the screen, but rather making the window the size that will display the most content from the current window with the minimum of scrolling. Some applications ignore this and just use the standard Windows behavior, hence the inconsistency.

moultano 16y ago
In practice it seems that everyone loathes this behavior, hence the need for sites like http://maximizechrome.com/ http://maximizechrome.com/
- ptomato 16y ago
  I prefer it for most things, actually, web browsers being one of the few exceptions depending on monitor size. There's usually absolutely no point in maximizing something to full screen on a 27" 2560x1440px display, for example. But for the times when I do want to I use Cinch (http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/cinch/ http://www.irradiatedsoftware.com/cinch/) which steals my favorite Windows 7 feature.

nileshk 16y ago

> Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application In OS X I rarely use these buttons. "Minimize" is very rarely useful. If I want to get an app out of the way I use Hide (CMD-H). Hide Others (CMD-Option-H) is also useful for making the current app the only one visible. Minimize is only useful to me when I want to get a window out of the way within an application (but not get the application out of the way). For example, lets say I had multiple Terminal windows open, and there was one that I knew I wasn't going to use for a while, and I didn't want it to show up when I cycle through windows when I hit CMD-`, then I would hit CMD-M to minimize. (This is hypothetical, though, I don't use Terminal that way.) I admit the "Zoom" button (what you expect to be Maximize, but isn't) is rather inconsistent due to apps having different opinions on its usage (iTunes being one of the worst). If you want Windows-style maximize, you can use something like shiftit ( http://code.google.com/p/shiftit/ http://code.google.com/p/shiftit/ ) which gives you a keyboard shortcut for it. It also gives you Windows 7 style tiling and more tiling features. I have a fork of this open source project where I'm experimenting with being able to resize windows to percentages of the screen size using keyboard shortcuts: http://github.com/nileshk/shiftit http://github.com/nileshk/shiftit Also, checkout this company's non-free products: http://irradiatedsoftware.com/ http://irradiatedsoftware.com/ Going back to your previous post, I think Windows 7's taskbar misses the point (assuming it's trying to copy OS X). What is nice in OS X is the whole app switching model. In OS X, when you click on an app in the dock, you are switch to that app bringing up all the app's non-minimized windows, whereas in Windows you are always switching to a specific window but not to the app as a whole. While I use OS X's dock, I use QuickSilver to switch to apps even more, which gives me a more precise keyboard-based way of navigating to the app that I want, where I can literally switch to an app that I want without looking at the screen (more that I don't have to study the screen in this process, which makes it faster for me). Spotlight can be used similarly, though it doesn't handle Finder the same way as Quicksilver (can't switch to Finder with Spotlight). I don't use Expose because I find it takes to much time to find and pick out the window I am looking for. Honestly, it took me 2 years of owning a Mac before I preferred it over my previous preference (Linux). I think it's a mix of the fact that it is a UNIX and the polish and little details of OS X (there is a lot to both it's form and function). It takes time to appreciate, because it is significantly different than other popular environments. I'd like to know what is so great about Windows 7, but my experience with it so far has made me think it is just another Windows with some eye-candy (which is not to my taste) and some decent Window tiling features. But I have not been able to give it an honest chance, because one of the .Net projects I maintain requires XP.

jsz0 16y ago

Right clicking? I can quad and penta click on my Magic TrackPad. I think that argument can die now.

ajaimk 16y ago

Scrollbars are hard to use 2 finger scrolling on trackpads is much more intuitive and also, whats wrong with the scrollbar? I'm sitting here fiddling with the one on safari and still can't figure out anything wrong with it. Window Max & Min buttons randomly work depending on the application Window Max maximizes the screen to the maximum amount of space "needed". Though this might not feel great on a 13" macbook, move onto a 27" screen and you will understand WHY firefox taking up the entire screen is a plain simple waste of space. I won't mention right clicking You better not mention it, cause you do realize that on the mac it is called 2-finger-clicking. It exists. So, you mentioning it won't make much of a difference. The hardware is also better but microsoft can force people to build awesome hardware. People who love great software make their own hardware. Google did it for their servers. I used to use a dell laptop. Bought in 2007. Trashed in 2008. Replace by a mac. Its still on Warranty. Why you ask. 1 year and 4 months = 7th Motherboard, 2rd Screen, 5th Keyboard, 3rd hard drive. And my macbook pro, 1 year and 4 months later: NOTHING.

Locke1689 16y ago

Let's just keep it down to taste, OK? Saying that one OS is clearly better than another is just begging for a flame war. From a technical perspective I can tell you that you are wrong in many cases. For background, I use OS X as my primary system, develop for Linux and the kernel, and work for Microsoft.