6 ms·

Intel with Radeon RX Vega Graphics: Core I7-8809G with 3.1 GHz Base, 100W TDP

76 points by DiabloD3 9y ago

deafcalculus 9y ago
I suppose this marks the death of low-end discrete GPUs.
- olegkikin 9y ago
  That's a good thing. Low-end GPUs suck anyway, but add so much weight and power consumption.
  - baldfat 9y ago
    Once someone goes to the $70 GPU the argument starts to fall off. Sure the sub $50 cards are only worth it for someone that just wants another monitor (BUT buy a display port card and monitors)The value to performance of these $50 cards is low. Looking at a GTX 1030 this $70 card's performance to value improves greatly. It has the same performance as a AMD 480. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814137140&cm_re=gtx_1030-_-14-137-140-_-Product https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681413...
    - maxsilver 9y ago
      > GTX 1030 this $70 card's performance to value improves greatly. It has the same performance as a AMD 480. Are you confusing it with the AMD RX 460? The 460 is similar to a 1030. An actual AMD RX 480/580 is far, far ahead of that. It's closer in performance to a GTX 1060.
    - WoodenChair 9y ago
      > It has the same performance as a AMD 480. Yeah I don’t think that’s true: http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GT-1030-vs-AMD-RX-480/m283726vs3634 http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GT-1030-vs-AMD-R...
    - paradisechris 9y ago
      Did you mean something else? After a quick look a 480 has around twice the performance. Nearly bought a 1030 ;)
      - baldfat 9y ago
        460!!!! I made a mistake :(
- ianhowson 9y ago
  Intel's integrated offerings already killed them off -- with the notable exception of the recent Macbook 15", where a dGPU is used primarily to support multiple 5k displays.
fredsted 9y ago
I wonder if this was designed for an Apple product? Maybe a new iMac or Mac mini?
- hjnilsson 9y ago
  Makes sense for a Mac mini definitely. Would be an attractive performance/TDP offering. This opens up for integrated GPUs on laptops as well, which would be very interesting.
  - watmough 9y ago
    Speaking from bitter experience of the most beautiful, but also expensive and unreliable Mac Book Pro 17" ($3500 USD), now both the GPU and CPU will de-solder themselves from the motherboard!
- pmjordan 9y ago
  100W is quite a bit higher TDP than any previous Mac Mini. The highest-power Minis I'm aware of are: - The Quad-Core Mac Minis from 2011 & 2012 with 45W TDP. (e.g. i7-3720QM) - The 2011 Mac Mini with dGPU with 35+26=61W TDP. (i7-2620M + Radeon HD 6630M) Mind you, we can always dream that Apple will care about those of us who have wanted a Mac without a built-in display that fits between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro.
- quantummkv 9y ago
  Looks like a perfect fit for the next MacBook Pro.
  - JBorrow 9y ago
    Unlikely. A 100W TDP would mean that it would not be possible to run the laptop for any more than an hour at full load (on battery) or it would draw from both the wall and battery with their current power designs at full load. Also, That would be insane to cool in a MBP format (that's about 2x the thermal output of the current 15").
    - 9y ago
mlvljr 9y ago
So this has TWO GPUs then? Can both be used at the same time? Would make a nice use case for Vulkan-based games.
sspiff 9y ago
Weird how they include an HD 630 on the die. This eats up a fair chunk of die area, and eats into the thermal budget. It also means that the displays will probably be wired to the HD 630, so the Radeon can power down to save power. Taking out the HD 630 could have lowered the power usage to a level more palatable to a laptop computer at full blast. This means that you have to pay a penalty to use the Radeon to render, but send its framebuffer result back to the HD630 for displaying. This is also the case current Nvidia Optimus or AMD Enduro systems. Draw backs from this approach are frame tear / lack of proper V-Sync and added latency. If this ends up being used by Apple however, it is likely that a hardware demux will be used to connect the display to both graphics chips, and switch it back and forth on demand. Other vendors don't do this, because it is more expensive, and passing the display from one GPU to another requires the pixel clock rate (among other details) to be shared between the different GPUs, which is not something that the vendor driver (Intel/Nvidia/AMD) stacks support. Note that such a hardware demux is used in previous generations of MacBook Pros, and it is not publicly documented, which means very poor and/or very late support in Open Source operating systems such as Linux. Some system builders (Lenovo and Asus have done this, probably others) wire the internal display of laptops to the Intel GPU, and the external HDMI/DP to the discrete graphics. In the past, this allowed you to power more displays (when Intel GPUs were restricted to 2 displays max), and it still allows you to avoid the Enduro/Optimus hassle for external displays, when you are likely to be powering the laptop with the A/C adapter anyway. It also meant that vendor/OEM specific drivers needed to be used in some cases, though.
- DiabloD3 9y ago
  In Windows 10 and Linux, this can be nearly for free without any additional hardware. Linux calls this dma-buf, and Windows 10 basically requires it for any WDDM 2.x compliant drivers: GPU to GPU direct DMA mapping without CPU involvement (directly routed over PCI-E and not through the CPU memory controller when possible). Basically, it means Optimus style and hardware-muxer style setups are obsolete, and display framebuffer and render framebuffer are entirely disconnected naturally; and also does not require any overt cross-architecture support (ex: Nvidia Optimus support in Nvidia's driver requires explicit Intel support; dma-buf solutions don't). Presumably, OSX also can leverage this.
stevefan1999 9y ago
With a liitle more polishing over this combination, I can see the future: thinnest ultrabook with desktop grade performance and experience; packing a monstrous 4C8T top tier CPU and a high end graphics chipset in an ultrabook is definitely great for everyone. Would have been better if a Ryzen CPU is on the run for me. This is going to be the future, no, It should have had been!
- craftyguy 9y ago
  With a 100W TDP, it's going need more than just a 'little more polishing' to be viable for a mobile ultrabook product.
  - stevefan1999 9y ago
    Agreed, I must have mistaken ultrabooks and notebooks. But rumor has it this hybrid chip will set its hold on 2018 MBPs. We might see how well it does first hand from Apple.
vesak 9y ago
Incidentally, HP is already selling an AMD Ryzen + Vega convertible laptop: http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-convertible-laptop-15z-touch-1za07av-1 http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-convertible-lapto... I'm waiting for the reviews to come in before making any decisions, but it looks like quite a nice machine.
- dragontamer 9y ago
  That's a Vega 8-compute units that's fully integrated with the CPU (and both the iGPU and CPU share a single memory controller to DDR4 RAM). The one talked about with the article is a Vega 24-compute units with extremely high-speed dedicated HBM memory. The performance difference would be night and day. ------------- With that said, I purchased that laptop you're talking about. A brief overview: 1. Terrible screen: something like 60% sRGB coverage (maybe worse), and it shows with dithering and banding artifacts. Its also noticeably dimmer than other laptops. 2. Horrible HP Store -- I bought the laptop during Black-Friday, and HP shipped me a bricked laptop. Then they wouldn't replace the laptop because I got a "custom" SSD drive or some bullS!@#!@ excuse. My choices were to repurchase at a "non-sales" price, or get a refund. I opted for the refund and had to wait until the next sale to get a decent price. I suggest you buy from a reputable retailer who has a decent return policy, just in case the computer is broken or some other issue comes up. You do NOT want to be dealing with HP's online store customer service. 3. Minor default driver issues -- Fullscreen Youtube has occasional glitches and I've had the screen shutoff at least once randomly. Based on other owners: this seems to go away once you reinstall Windows and do some of HP's legwork for them. You should expect to reinstall Windows anyway because of the large number of bloatware (McAffee, Candy Crush, etc. etc.) that comes with the laptop. 4. AMD Driver Issues -- There's no Raven Ridge version of the latest "AMD Adrenaline" driver set. AMD's driver rollout for this laptop seems to be slow. I figure that as Raven Ridge APUs become more widespread, AMD's driver situation will improve. 5. Defaults to a Hard Drive -- Why HP? Just... why? But it has an M.2 slot, so its super easy for me to just stick a Samsung 960 Evo in there and fix that issue. ----------- Aside from the poor quality screen (which stands out), its a good laptop overall. I think I'll be fine with it. Its got a numpad, the "360" 2-in-1 form factor definitely works, and the Stylus support is great. The laptop is also fully expandable, with an M.2 slot, SATA slot, and easily accessible DDR4 DIMMs: http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c05819570 http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c05819570 So you can upgrade the laptop to your hearts content. You are going to be stuck with a dim, dithered, banding screen however. Its sufficient for office applications but holy crap the color irregularities are quite obvious. So this laptop's screen definitely can't be used for any serious art (which is a shame, since the Stylus support is so good). Its definitely a $700ish laptop, with all of the issues that is typical in the $700 price range. (ie: Poor Screens are seriously common at this price range). You'll get very good price/performance and reasonable gaming on the go, since you get 4c / 8threads, a decent iGPU (its not as good as the MX150, but it can play the newest Doom at 720p and Rocket League at 57FPS / 720p). I guess... the x360 as purchased isn't a very good laptop. But its actually very easy to turn it into a good laptop (aside from the screen). Reload Windows, fix up the drivers a bit, stick an M.2 SSD in there and its actually great.

76 points by DiabloD3 9y ago

deafcalculus 9y ago

I suppose this marks the death of low-end discrete GPUs.

olegkikin 9y ago
That's a good thing. Low-end GPUs suck anyway, but add so much weight and power consumption.
- baldfat 9y ago
  Once someone goes to the $70 GPU the argument starts to fall off. Sure the sub $50 cards are only worth it for someone that just wants another monitor (BUT buy a display port card and monitors)The value to performance of these $50 cards is low. Looking at a GTX 1030 this $70 card's performance to value improves greatly. It has the same performance as a AMD 480. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814137140&cm_re=gtx_1030-_-14-137-140-_-Product https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681413...
  - maxsilver 9y ago
    > GTX 1030 this $70 card's performance to value improves greatly. It has the same performance as a AMD 480. Are you confusing it with the AMD RX 460? The 460 is similar to a 1030. An actual AMD RX 480/580 is far, far ahead of that. It's closer in performance to a GTX 1060.
  - WoodenChair 9y ago
    > It has the same performance as a AMD 480. Yeah I don’t think that’s true: http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GT-1030-vs-AMD-RX-480/m283726vs3634 http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-GT-1030-vs-AMD-R...
  - paradisechris 9y ago
    Did you mean something else? After a quick look a 480 has around twice the performance. Nearly bought a 1030 ;)
    - baldfat 9y ago
      460!!!! I made a mistake :(
ianhowson 9y ago
Intel's integrated offerings already killed them off -- with the notable exception of the recent Macbook 15", where a dGPU is used primarily to support multiple 5k displays.

fredsted 9y ago

I wonder if this was designed for an Apple product? Maybe a new iMac or Mac mini?

hjnilsson 9y ago
Makes sense for a Mac mini definitely. Would be an attractive performance/TDP offering. This opens up for integrated GPUs on laptops as well, which would be very interesting.
- watmough 9y ago
  Speaking from bitter experience of the most beautiful, but also expensive and unreliable Mac Book Pro 17" ($3500 USD), now both the GPU and CPU will de-solder themselves from the motherboard!
pmjordan 9y ago
100W is quite a bit higher TDP than any previous Mac Mini. The highest-power Minis I'm aware of are: - The Quad-Core Mac Minis from 2011 & 2012 with 45W TDP. (e.g. i7-3720QM) - The 2011 Mac Mini with dGPU with 35+26=61W TDP. (i7-2620M + Radeon HD 6630M) Mind you, we can always dream that Apple will care about those of us who have wanted a Mac without a built-in display that fits between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro.
quantummkv 9y ago
Looks like a perfect fit for the next MacBook Pro.
- JBorrow 9y ago
  Unlikely. A 100W TDP would mean that it would not be possible to run the laptop for any more than an hour at full load (on battery) or it would draw from both the wall and battery with their current power designs at full load. Also, That would be insane to cool in a MBP format (that's about 2x the thermal output of the current 15").
  - 9y ago

mlvljr 9y ago

So this has TWO GPUs then? Can both be used at the same time? Would make a nice use case for Vulkan-based games.

sspiff 9y ago

Weird how they include an HD 630 on the die. This eats up a fair chunk of die area, and eats into the thermal budget. It also means that the displays will probably be wired to the HD 630, so the Radeon can power down to save power. Taking out the HD 630 could have lowered the power usage to a level more palatable to a laptop computer at full blast. This means that you have to pay a penalty to use the Radeon to render, but send its framebuffer result back to the HD630 for displaying. This is also the case current Nvidia Optimus or AMD Enduro systems. Draw backs from this approach are frame tear / lack of proper V-Sync and added latency. If this ends up being used by Apple however, it is likely that a hardware demux will be used to connect the display to both graphics chips, and switch it back and forth on demand. Other vendors don't do this, because it is more expensive, and passing the display from one GPU to another requires the pixel clock rate (among other details) to be shared between the different GPUs, which is not something that the vendor driver (Intel/Nvidia/AMD) stacks support. Note that such a hardware demux is used in previous generations of MacBook Pros, and it is not publicly documented, which means very poor and/or very late support in Open Source operating systems such as Linux. Some system builders (Lenovo and Asus have done this, probably others) wire the internal display of laptops to the Intel GPU, and the external HDMI/DP to the discrete graphics. In the past, this allowed you to power more displays (when Intel GPUs were restricted to 2 displays max), and it still allows you to avoid the Enduro/Optimus hassle for external displays, when you are likely to be powering the laptop with the A/C adapter anyway. It also meant that vendor/OEM specific drivers needed to be used in some cases, though.

DiabloD3 9y ago
In Windows 10 and Linux, this can be nearly for free without any additional hardware. Linux calls this dma-buf, and Windows 10 basically requires it for any WDDM 2.x compliant drivers: GPU to GPU direct DMA mapping without CPU involvement (directly routed over PCI-E and not through the CPU memory controller when possible). Basically, it means Optimus style and hardware-muxer style setups are obsolete, and display framebuffer and render framebuffer are entirely disconnected naturally; and also does not require any overt cross-architecture support (ex: Nvidia Optimus support in Nvidia's driver requires explicit Intel support; dma-buf solutions don't). Presumably, OSX also can leverage this.

stevefan1999 9y ago

With a liitle more polishing over this combination, I can see the future: thinnest ultrabook with desktop grade performance and experience; packing a monstrous 4C8T top tier CPU and a high end graphics chipset in an ultrabook is definitely great for everyone. Would have been better if a Ryzen CPU is on the run for me. This is going to be the future, no, It should have had been!

craftyguy 9y ago
With a 100W TDP, it's going need more than just a 'little more polishing' to be viable for a mobile ultrabook product.
- stevefan1999 9y ago
  Agreed, I must have mistaken ultrabooks and notebooks. But rumor has it this hybrid chip will set its hold on 2018 MBPs. We might see how well it does first hand from Apple.

vesak 9y ago

Incidentally, HP is already selling an AMD Ryzen + Vega convertible laptop: http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-convertible-laptop-15z-touch-1za07av-1 http://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-convertible-lapto... I'm waiting for the reviews to come in before making any decisions, but it looks like quite a nice machine.

dragontamer 9y ago
That's a Vega 8-compute units that's fully integrated with the CPU (and both the iGPU and CPU share a single memory controller to DDR4 RAM). The one talked about with the article is a Vega 24-compute units with extremely high-speed dedicated HBM memory. The performance difference would be night and day. ------------- With that said, I purchased that laptop you're talking about. A brief overview: 1. Terrible screen: something like 60% sRGB coverage (maybe worse), and it shows with dithering and banding artifacts. Its also noticeably dimmer than other laptops. 2. Horrible HP Store -- I bought the laptop during Black-Friday, and HP shipped me a bricked laptop. Then they wouldn't replace the laptop because I got a "custom" SSD drive or some bullS!@#!@ excuse. My choices were to repurchase at a "non-sales" price, or get a refund. I opted for the refund and had to wait until the next sale to get a decent price. I suggest you buy from a reputable retailer who has a decent return policy, just in case the computer is broken or some other issue comes up. You do NOT want to be dealing with HP's online store customer service. 3. Minor default driver issues -- Fullscreen Youtube has occasional glitches and I've had the screen shutoff at least once randomly. Based on other owners: this seems to go away once you reinstall Windows and do some of HP's legwork for them. You should expect to reinstall Windows anyway because of the large number of bloatware (McAffee, Candy Crush, etc. etc.) that comes with the laptop. 4. AMD Driver Issues -- There's no Raven Ridge version of the latest "AMD Adrenaline" driver set. AMD's driver rollout for this laptop seems to be slow. I figure that as Raven Ridge APUs become more widespread, AMD's driver situation will improve. 5. Defaults to a Hard Drive -- Why HP? Just... why? But it has an M.2 slot, so its super easy for me to just stick a Samsung 960 Evo in there and fix that issue. ----------- Aside from the poor quality screen (which stands out), its a good laptop overall. I think I'll be fine with it. Its got a numpad, the "360" 2-in-1 form factor definitely works, and the Stylus support is great. The laptop is also fully expandable, with an M.2 slot, SATA slot, and easily accessible DDR4 DIMMs: http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c05819570 http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c05819570 So you can upgrade the laptop to your hearts content. You are going to be stuck with a dim, dithered, banding screen however. Its sufficient for office applications but holy crap the color irregularities are quite obvious. So this laptop's screen definitely can't be used for any serious art (which is a shame, since the Stylus support is so good). Its definitely a $700ish laptop, with all of the issues that is typical in the $700 price range. (ie: Poor Screens are seriously common at this price range). You'll get very good price/performance and reasonable gaming on the go, since you get 4c / 8threads, a decent iGPU (its not as good as the MX150, but it can play the newest Doom at 720p and Rocket League at 57FPS / 720p). I guess... the x360 as purchased isn't a very good laptop. But its actually very easy to turn it into a good laptop (aside from the screen). Reload Windows, fix up the drivers a bit, stick an M.2 SSD in there and its actually great.