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We did this exact thing at SGI 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand I wonder if Cloudflare was inspired

We did this exact thing at SGI 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand I wonder if Cloudflare was inspired by that.

tptacek 9y ago
Yes, they were; they mentioned it explicitly.
- erric 9y ago
  The article doesn’t actually mention SGI.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    No, just the name of SGI's lava lamp random number generator, referenced as prior art.
  - vonseel 9y ago
    It’s tptacek. He’s probably spoken with Cloudflare directly or consulted for them.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      (1) No. (2) No love lost there. (3) That is a weird comment to write.
      - vonseel 9y ago
        Thanks! I try!
- Izkata 9y ago
  The article explains how it works, without any mention of the inspiration.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    This article. Others make the association clear.
erric 9y ago
IRIX was nothing if not very pretty. Thanks for XFS :)
jlgaddis 9y ago
> We're not the first ones to do this. Our LavaRand system was inspired by a similar system first proposed and built by Silicon Graphics and patented in 1996 (the patent has since expired). -- https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-production/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-produ...
- scoggs 9y ago
  I know that people patent things for various reasons but would people truly expect the holder of that patent to litigate against another company using that method to ensure "more true" randomness in whatever application they were using? I, personally, imagine the patent holder would be glad to see others using their method to ensure true randomness so long as they were using the technology for anything other than evil.
  - larkeith 9y ago
    I'm not familiar enough with the management of Silicon Graphics to say if they specifically would be likely to litigate, but I doubt CloudFlare would take the risk on an unexpired patent - management changes, and plenty of companies enforce patents that could do much more good than strengthening cryptography in the hunt for profit (see: the medical industry).
  - theoh 9y ago
    What's special about sources of randomness? Would you have the same intuition about a patented process for creating physical objects?
  - Crontab 9y ago
    In today's world, yes, I would expect a patent holder to sue.
  - code_duck 9y ago
    It’s a useful technology that they spent the time and money to patent. There’s no reason to assume anything about the intent of the patent holders.
  - 9y ago
mmjaa 9y ago
Before SGI, there was the Aquari-rand, but I can't find a link for it. Basically an Aquarium with a digital camera pointed at it..

We did this exact thing at SGI 20 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavarand I wonder if Cloudflare was inspired by that.

tptacek 9y ago

Yes, they were; they mentioned it explicitly.

erric 9y ago
The article doesn’t actually mention SGI.
- tptacek 9y ago
  No, just the name of SGI's lava lamp random number generator, referenced as prior art.
- vonseel 9y ago
  It’s tptacek. He’s probably spoken with Cloudflare directly or consulted for them.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    (1) No. (2) No love lost there. (3) That is a weird comment to write.
    - vonseel 9y ago
      Thanks! I try!
Izkata 9y ago
The article explains how it works, without any mention of the inspiration.
- tptacek 9y ago
  This article. Others make the association clear.

erric 9y ago

IRIX was nothing if not very pretty. Thanks for XFS :)

jlgaddis 9y ago

> We're not the first ones to do this. Our LavaRand system was inspired by a similar system first proposed and built by Silicon Graphics and patented in 1996 (the patent has since expired). -- https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-production/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/randomness-101-lavarand-in-produ...

scoggs 9y ago
I know that people patent things for various reasons but would people truly expect the holder of that patent to litigate against another company using that method to ensure "more true" randomness in whatever application they were using? I, personally, imagine the patent holder would be glad to see others using their method to ensure true randomness so long as they were using the technology for anything other than evil.
- larkeith 9y ago
  I'm not familiar enough with the management of Silicon Graphics to say if they specifically would be likely to litigate, but I doubt CloudFlare would take the risk on an unexpired patent - management changes, and plenty of companies enforce patents that could do much more good than strengthening cryptography in the hunt for profit (see: the medical industry).
- theoh 9y ago
  What's special about sources of randomness? Would you have the same intuition about a patented process for creating physical objects?
- Crontab 9y ago
  In today's world, yes, I would expect a patent holder to sue.
- code_duck 9y ago
  It’s a useful technology that they spent the time and money to patent. There’s no reason to assume anything about the intent of the patent holders.
- 9y ago

mmjaa 9y ago

Before SGI, there was the Aquari-rand, but I can't find a link for it. Basically an Aquarium with a digital camera pointed at it..