5 ms·

It would be nice if they were paying tax in the first place

jimnotgym 9y ago
I came here to say the same thing. If they want to enjoy the benefits of operating in a securely governed nation with mature infrastructure then they can damn well chip in to help pay for it
- devmunchies 9y ago
  "Operating in"? They are just online websites accessible by anyone with internet. If they have paying customers in Europe then it'd make sense to pay taxes on just that revenue. But saying that a company has to pay taxes just because it gets traffic is a little extreme.
  - pimmen 9y ago
    I would say that they're "operating in the UK" when UK companies buy ad space from Facebook and Google which they later distribute to consumers in the UK. They do have offices in the UK and it's not like they're just playing ping pong there.
    - jimmywanger 9y ago
      Would you also be operating in the UK if you supplied parts/goods to a UK based retailer that sold your goods in the UK?
      - pimmen 9y ago
        Yep, if I had an office and employees in the UK hooking me up with these retailers. Facebook and Google do have offices in the UK selling ad spaces and even some developers in the UK. What's your definition of "operating in"?
        jimmywanger 9y ago
        The office pays tax and employees in the UK already pay personal income tax. To avoid double taxation, it's very difficult to establish how much revenue should be charged to a particular tax jurisdiction. Legally, "operating in" means whatever you claim as your home country. Otherwise, it turns into a morass. However, tax laws are NP complete. Every time you try to close a loophole you introduce unforseen interactions with other pre-existing laws. How do you think the double Irish got established? Totally legal, and not taking advantage of it would be foolish.
        jimnotgym 9y ago
        > The office pays tax and employees in the UK already pay personal income tax What do you mean the office pays tax? Yes employees do, but it is the nature of that business that headcount is low in proportion to revenues, so this is not a big number. This is an argument against all corporation tax btw, is that what you meant? corporations should pay no tax because they have employees that should pay it? > To avoid double taxation, it's very difficult to establish how much revenue should be charged to a particular tax jurisdiction. It really isn't hard to find out where the revenue was, when you buy Facebook advertising you choose who you want it shown to. It wouldn't be very useful if my UK window cleaning service was shown to Indian users. So the service was delivered in the UK. It gets complicated you start using brand licensing deals between your group to move profits around. Or even more obscure, Starbucks UK buys its coffee beans from that famous coffee producing country, Switzerland for an obscene markup. Personally I am in favour of heavy restriction for anything over market value. > legally, "operating in" means whatever you claim as your home country 'Operating in' does not mean that at all. Operating in is where you are making sales, or have operations. You are operating in at least all of the countries where you have employees. I think you are thinking about 'headquartered in' Facebook has a UK registered subsidiary making sales in the UK. The UK is a good market for a tech company, low regulation, very low corruption, good broadband and mobile coverage. none of that was free for the UK to install.
        jimmywanger 9y ago
        > What do you mean the office pays tax? The office pays rent, which presumably goes to the property owner (taxed) > Yes employees do, but it is the nature of that business that headcount is low in proportion to revenues, so this is not a big number. So corporate income tax should be inversely proportional to how many employees you have? For example, if you have a large construction company, and you make your workers use teaspoons instead of shovels, you should pay fewer taxes? That sort of logic leads to the depriortization of efficiency and automation. > It really isn't hard to find out where the revenue was, when you buy Facebook advertising you choose who you want it shown to. Sure. Maybe you're saying "football fans" if you're selling jerseys (either US or European football). So the jersey was manufactured in China, sent to the UK, and shipped to Germany. The advertising company is based in the states (like Facebook or Google). Which country should Facebook/Google pay taxes to? Industrial manufacturing targets interests more then geographic location. For instance, if you're a UK company primarily buying ad space from a US outlet but primarily selling to China, where should the revenue taxes be sent to? > Operating in is where you are making sales, or have operations. How does that work? Most large IT/hosting companies have data centers in foreign nations. Do they have to split up revenues based on traffic patterns? (For example, 5% of our traffic goes through London so we have to pay British taxes on 5% of our hosting revenues.) > Facebook has a UK registered subsidiary making sales in the UK. The question is not that simple. Who cares where the sales are being made? That completely discounts the costs of R&D.
  - vbuwivbiu 9y ago
    the people who's personal data they're harvesting live in a country having public services (payed-for by taxes) which make that data and its gathering possible
  - geocar 9y ago
    Facebook UK Ltd. is a UK limited company who received £842 million in revenue in their 2016 filing. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06331310 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06331310
pjspycha 9y ago
If they want those taxes, they need to fix their tax laws. No company will freely donate their earnings.

I came here to say the same thing. If they want to enjoy the benefits of operating in a securely governed nation with mature infrastructure then they can damn well chip in to help pay for it

devmunchies 9y ago
"Operating in"? They are just online websites accessible by anyone with internet. If they have paying customers in Europe then it'd make sense to pay taxes on just that revenue. But saying that a company has to pay taxes just because it gets traffic is a little extreme.
- pimmen 9y ago
  I would say that they're "operating in the UK" when UK companies buy ad space from Facebook and Google which they later distribute to consumers in the UK. They do have offices in the UK and it's not like they're just playing ping pong there.
  - jimmywanger 9y ago
    Would you also be operating in the UK if you supplied parts/goods to a UK based retailer that sold your goods in the UK?
    - pimmen 9y ago
      Yep, if I had an office and employees in the UK hooking me up with these retailers. Facebook and Google do have offices in the UK selling ad spaces and even some developers in the UK. What's your definition of "operating in"?
      - jimmywanger 9y ago
        The office pays tax and employees in the UK already pay personal income tax. To avoid double taxation, it's very difficult to establish how much revenue should be charged to a particular tax jurisdiction. Legally, "operating in" means whatever you claim as your home country. Otherwise, it turns into a morass. However, tax laws are NP complete. Every time you try to close a loophole you introduce unforseen interactions with other pre-existing laws. How do you think the double Irish got established? Totally legal, and not taking advantage of it would be foolish.
        jimnotgym 9y ago
        > The office pays tax and employees in the UK already pay personal income tax What do you mean the office pays tax? Yes employees do, but it is the nature of that business that headcount is low in proportion to revenues, so this is not a big number. This is an argument against all corporation tax btw, is that what you meant? corporations should pay no tax because they have employees that should pay it? > To avoid double taxation, it's very difficult to establish how much revenue should be charged to a particular tax jurisdiction. It really isn't hard to find out where the revenue was, when you buy Facebook advertising you choose who you want it shown to. It wouldn't be very useful if my UK window cleaning service was shown to Indian users. So the service was delivered in the UK. It gets complicated you start using brand licensing deals between your group to move profits around. Or even more obscure, Starbucks UK buys its coffee beans from that famous coffee producing country, Switzerland for an obscene markup. Personally I am in favour of heavy restriction for anything over market value. > legally, "operating in" means whatever you claim as your home country 'Operating in' does not mean that at all. Operating in is where you are making sales, or have operations. You are operating in at least all of the countries where you have employees. I think you are thinking about 'headquartered in' Facebook has a UK registered subsidiary making sales in the UK. The UK is a good market for a tech company, low regulation, very low corruption, good broadband and mobile coverage. none of that was free for the UK to install.
        jimmywanger 9y ago
        > What do you mean the office pays tax? The office pays rent, which presumably goes to the property owner (taxed) > Yes employees do, but it is the nature of that business that headcount is low in proportion to revenues, so this is not a big number. So corporate income tax should be inversely proportional to how many employees you have? For example, if you have a large construction company, and you make your workers use teaspoons instead of shovels, you should pay fewer taxes? That sort of logic leads to the depriortization of efficiency and automation. > It really isn't hard to find out where the revenue was, when you buy Facebook advertising you choose who you want it shown to. Sure. Maybe you're saying "football fans" if you're selling jerseys (either US or European football). So the jersey was manufactured in China, sent to the UK, and shipped to Germany. The advertising company is based in the states (like Facebook or Google). Which country should Facebook/Google pay taxes to? Industrial manufacturing targets interests more then geographic location. For instance, if you're a UK company primarily buying ad space from a US outlet but primarily selling to China, where should the revenue taxes be sent to? > Operating in is where you are making sales, or have operations. How does that work? Most large IT/hosting companies have data centers in foreign nations. Do they have to split up revenues based on traffic patterns? (For example, 5% of our traffic goes through London so we have to pay British taxes on 5% of our hosting revenues.) > Facebook has a UK registered subsidiary making sales in the UK. The question is not that simple. Who cares where the sales are being made? That completely discounts the costs of R&D.
- vbuwivbiu 9y ago
  the people who's personal data they're harvesting live in a country having public services (payed-for by taxes) which make that data and its gathering possible
- geocar 9y ago
  Facebook UK Ltd. is a UK limited company who received £842 million in revenue in their 2016 filing. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06331310 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06331310

pjspycha 9y ago

If they want those taxes, they need to fix their tax laws. No company will freely donate their earnings.