4 ms·

At some point wealth moves past material goods and into the realm of your ability to influence society. If only everyone with money had noble goals when it came

At some point wealth moves past material goods and into the realm of your ability to influence society. If only everyone with money had noble goals when it came to this influence...

username223 9y ago
If only we could separate the power to reshape society for personal benefit from the ability to score "mine is bigger than yours" points. Zuck, Gates, the Kochs, and others probably have "buy a President" money, and could probably also develop personal nuclear arsenals. Let them play that video game and compete for new high scores.
- xtiansimon 9y ago
  Net Neutrality
conanbatt 9y ago
Yet the greatest evils in society did not arise from the behavior of the rich but from those that claim they will help the poor.
- aalleavitch 9y ago
  That statement is downright silly; on the whole atrocities have been essentially ideal-neutral. Some dictator uses a popular sentiment to seize power and then uses that power in horrible ways. It's as often due to racial animosity or religious fervor as it is the well-being of the poor; it just has to be something that sells well to the population at large.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    > That statement is downright silly; on the whole atrocities have been essentially ideal-neutral I disagree with the premise, but for the sake of argument, even if taken as assumption the point still stands. "Taxing the rich" is a proposition that will help the people that collect the tax far more than the general population. A simple example of this can be Seattle and San Francisco Governments, that have had explosive tax income booms, most of their staff collection 6 figure salaries, and yet both cities enjoy very large homeless populations. Increasing tax income does not mean inequality will decrease. It might even make it worse.
    - aoeusnth1 9y ago
      How did you manage to turn a discussion about atrocities and demagogues into a complaint about your pet peeve of tax collectors being highly compensated? Your argument is completely incoherent. Are you suggesting that raising taxes on the rich through closing loopholes, raising capital gains tax, removing 529 and housing subsidies, and yes, increasing income tax, would actually end up with Gini inequality getting even more skewed? Absurd.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        > How did you manage to turn a discussion about atrocities and demagogues into a complaint about your pet peeve of tax collectors being highly compensated? I didn't turn anything: they are the same thing more often than not. > Your argument is completely incoherent. Are you suggesting that raising taxes on the rich through closing loopholes, raising capital gains tax, removing 529 and housing subsidies, and yes, increasing income tax, would actually end up with Gini inequality getting even more skewed? And thus my examples of Seattle and San Francisco: cities that have had exponential tax income at the same time as a net increase in homelessness. + TAX + (extreme?)Poverty simultaneously. It is disproven constantly that what the state gathers, it does not distribute appropriately. The city of san francisco spends 20k+ a year per homeless person, but if you look at the way they live, you can be pretty certain they don't get that. Raising taxes is not the solution to poverty. Specially when everybody pays them.
    - bmer 9y ago
      Data please, showing that Seattle/San Fran have a tax income booms, that the tax income boom is due to changes in laws, that tax collection workers are paid ridiculous 6 figure salaries (note, $100,000 is not a ridiculous 6 figure salary), and finally that homeless populations have grown or remained stable even after tax income booms that resulted from legal increases in tax rates.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/seattle-went-on-a-government-spending-spree-with-a-deluge-of-taxes-six-figure-pay-and-officials-eager-to-do-more/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/sea... https://www.seattle.gov/financedepartment/documents/EconomicandRevenueUpdateforCouncil-9-29-16.pdf https://www.seattle.gov/financedepartment/documents/Economic... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/podcast-how-the-seattle-times-new-project-homeless-is-tackling-a-civic-emergency/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/podcast-h... Thats seattle. I have limited anecdotal data of seattle, but the homelessness is pretty pervasive, almost San Francisco Level. On SF: http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record-241-million-on-homeless-6808319.php http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record... Googling has reports on SF tax revenue, but dont have a quick link for it. It will definitely show growth in the past decade, since there are more people, more consumption, housing boom (and hence prop taxes) etc. If you insist I can google more, but I dont have a skill you dont on that front. Two of the fastest growing cities ever, tax revenue surge, increased government expenditure, higher homelessness. Cant help but think that Henry George was right.
  - notyourday 9y ago
    > That statement is downright silly; on the whole atrocities have been essentially ideal-neutral. Some dictator uses a popular sentiment to seize power and then uses that power in horrible ways. It's as often due to racial animosity or religious fervor as it is the well-being of the poor; it just has to be something that sells well to the population at large. USSR + communist china + North Korea + Communist countries in Europe + Cuba + communist countries in Africa. They kind of blow that ideal-neutral theory out of the water
    - bmer 9y ago
      The British Empire + historical monarchies and oligarchiies + capitalist countries in Africa + the Nazis + 20th century Japanese Empire + American expansion westward (and one might argue, modern day American influence) would like to help balance your cherry picked examples.
      - notyourday 9y ago
        There's a little problem with the scale. All of the ones that you have mentioned in total would be dwarfed by the numbers of USSR + China.

At some point wealth moves past material goods and into the realm of your ability to influence society. If only everyone with money had noble goals when it came to this influence...

username223 9y ago

If only we could separate the power to reshape society for personal benefit from the ability to score "mine is bigger than yours" points. Zuck, Gates, the Kochs, and others probably have "buy a President" money, and could probably also develop personal nuclear arsenals. Let them play that video game and compete for new high scores.

xtiansimon 9y ago
Net Neutrality

conanbatt 9y ago

Yet the greatest evils in society did not arise from the behavior of the rich but from those that claim they will help the poor.

aalleavitch 9y ago
That statement is downright silly; on the whole atrocities have been essentially ideal-neutral. Some dictator uses a popular sentiment to seize power and then uses that power in horrible ways. It's as often due to racial animosity or religious fervor as it is the well-being of the poor; it just has to be something that sells well to the population at large.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  > That statement is downright silly; on the whole atrocities have been essentially ideal-neutral I disagree with the premise, but for the sake of argument, even if taken as assumption the point still stands. "Taxing the rich" is a proposition that will help the people that collect the tax far more than the general population. A simple example of this can be Seattle and San Francisco Governments, that have had explosive tax income booms, most of their staff collection 6 figure salaries, and yet both cities enjoy very large homeless populations. Increasing tax income does not mean inequality will decrease. It might even make it worse.
  - aoeusnth1 9y ago
    How did you manage to turn a discussion about atrocities and demagogues into a complaint about your pet peeve of tax collectors being highly compensated? Your argument is completely incoherent. Are you suggesting that raising taxes on the rich through closing loopholes, raising capital gains tax, removing 529 and housing subsidies, and yes, increasing income tax, would actually end up with Gini inequality getting even more skewed? Absurd.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      > How did you manage to turn a discussion about atrocities and demagogues into a complaint about your pet peeve of tax collectors being highly compensated? I didn't turn anything: they are the same thing more often than not. > Your argument is completely incoherent. Are you suggesting that raising taxes on the rich through closing loopholes, raising capital gains tax, removing 529 and housing subsidies, and yes, increasing income tax, would actually end up with Gini inequality getting even more skewed? And thus my examples of Seattle and San Francisco: cities that have had exponential tax income at the same time as a net increase in homelessness. + TAX + (extreme?)Poverty simultaneously. It is disproven constantly that what the state gathers, it does not distribute appropriately. The city of san francisco spends 20k+ a year per homeless person, but if you look at the way they live, you can be pretty certain they don't get that. Raising taxes is not the solution to poverty. Specially when everybody pays them.
  - bmer 9y ago
    Data please, showing that Seattle/San Fran have a tax income booms, that the tax income boom is due to changes in laws, that tax collection workers are paid ridiculous 6 figure salaries (note, $100,000 is not a ridiculous 6 figure salary), and finally that homeless populations have grown or remained stable even after tax income booms that resulted from legal increases in tax rates.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/seattle-went-on-a-government-spending-spree-with-a-deluge-of-taxes-six-figure-pay-and-officials-eager-to-do-more/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/sea... https://www.seattle.gov/financedepartment/documents/EconomicandRevenueUpdateforCouncil-9-29-16.pdf https://www.seattle.gov/financedepartment/documents/Economic... https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/podcast-how-the-seattle-times-new-project-homeless-is-tackling-a-civic-emergency/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/podcast-h... Thats seattle. I have limited anecdotal data of seattle, but the homelessness is pretty pervasive, almost San Francisco Level. On SF: http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record-241-million-on-homeless-6808319.php http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/S-F-spends-record... Googling has reports on SF tax revenue, but dont have a quick link for it. It will definitely show growth in the past decade, since there are more people, more consumption, housing boom (and hence prop taxes) etc. If you insist I can google more, but I dont have a skill you dont on that front. Two of the fastest growing cities ever, tax revenue surge, increased government expenditure, higher homelessness. Cant help but think that Henry George was right.
- notyourday 9y ago
  > That statement is downright silly; on the whole atrocities have been essentially ideal-neutral. Some dictator uses a popular sentiment to seize power and then uses that power in horrible ways. It's as often due to racial animosity or religious fervor as it is the well-being of the poor; it just has to be something that sells well to the population at large. USSR + communist china + North Korea + Communist countries in Europe + Cuba + communist countries in Africa. They kind of blow that ideal-neutral theory out of the water
  - bmer 9y ago
    The British Empire + historical monarchies and oligarchiies + capitalist countries in Africa + the Nazis + 20th century Japanese Empire + American expansion westward (and one might argue, modern day American influence) would like to help balance your cherry picked examples.
    - notyourday 9y ago
      There's a little problem with the scale. All of the ones that you have mentioned in total would be dwarfed by the numbers of USSR + China.