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I can understand a persons willingness to 'push the envelope' and stretch themselves to reach their goals, but I am always mystified by the seeming lack of unde

I can understand a persons willingness to 'push the envelope' and stretch themselves to reach their goals, but I am always mystified by the seeming lack of understanding by those who try and tackle Everest when they are not at peak climbing ability. In almost every case, it is the local Sherpas who will have to then risk their own lives to undertake a rescue or recovery operation if you don't make it. Plus, I would hate to think that you would become just a nameless waypoint or turning marker on the way to the summit, much as poor 'Green Boots' and others have become. (though I believe 'Green Boots' has been removed now?) EDIT: It appears that 'Green Boots' is still on the mountain, and has not been removed as previously thought. [0] [0] - http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2017/05/27/everest-2017-weekend-update-may-27/ http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2017/05/27/everest-2017-week...

InclinedPlane 9y ago
Everest is the worst example of mountaineering. For many it's just an achievement, not an experience, not something that's worthwhile on its own merits. And in that light it makes it more obvious why so many people fall into the trap of tackling it unprepared. Many people don't understand how challenging it can be and they think that if they just struggle through and be miserable for a few days they'll come out the other end with a shiny brass ring they can decorate their life with, something that will serve as bragging rights and help define who they are as a person for their life. It's really not much different than, say, college, for that matter. When you have people who have been rewarded so much for gaming the system, when you have people who struggle constantly in the search for authenticity and meaning in their life they are prone to try to fake their way through.
- whatever_dude 9y ago
  I can't speak for climbers from other countries, but I feel that the American attitude towards achievements like "climbing mountain X" is that they want exactly that, a checkmark on a list. They want to get in and get out as fast as possible. The destination is the goal, and everything in between is just noise that should be overcome as swiftly as possible. This is, at least, my anedoctal experience. I go hiking recreational level hills with (American) friends frequently and it always annoys me how they just want to get to the top as soon as possible and then come back down just as quickly. I instead frequently stop on my way to look around and admire the view (and not just at officially sanctioned "lookout points") and this is something they never have any inclination on doing.
  - crimsonalucard 9y ago
    Coincidentally, Nepal is one of the best places to trek in the world, thanks in part to the natural beauty and tea houses located everywhere. It's worth it just to visit base camp.
  - totalZero 9y ago
    This seems like a pretty broad generalization, deriving an entire culture's adventure sport habits from a hill hike with friends. Not saying you're wrong, not saying you're right. For me, it takes a little more to characterize 300+ million people.
    - SirZimzim 9y ago
      I've lived in a few countries and I'd say the whole constant need to be first or ahead of others is definitely a characteristic among Americans.
    - whatever_dude 9y ago
      I did say it is anedoctal, but to make it more clear: this was not from just "a hill hike with friends". This is my experience from years hiking with these and other friends in the US, noticing their behavior (and those of other people in the same trails) on both the West and East coast, and contrasting it to the behavior seen in comparable trails outside of the US. After a while it starts feeling more like a common pattern, instead of an isolated thing.
      - hprotagonist 9y ago
        hikers and alpinists are totally different breeds, though. The americans writing articles for the AAC journal or evening sends or whatnot are not peak-baggers. conversely, the grade-seekers of 8a.nu are primarily european.
        InclinedPlane 9y ago
        Anecdotally I'd say that's true. The majority of the most active climbers and alpinists that I've been around don't seem to be overly goal oriented about it, though there definitely is a subset who are.
sandworm101 9y ago
I wouldn't blame the mountain. It isn't dangerous anymore, not like it once was. Modern climbing is extraordinarily safe. We now have gear that we can actually trust. Ropes are now basically magic. But more importantly, modern communications and weather forecasting mean climbers no longer need step into the void. Dangers that were once total unknowns are now calculable. It is much easier to be bold when you know what you are about to face. So I'd say the mountain is exactly as dangerous as those climbing it want it to make it. We are just now realizing that well-informed and equipped people often take risks that previous less-informed generations would never consider. Soloing everest was once crazy, but I wouldn't be surprised if some idiot out there is planning the first free-solo on-sight.
- vidarh 9y ago
  Part of the issue is that people seek out risk. If something is made safer, people will not go "great, no we're not taking any risks" - they will seek out something riskier. Peoples individual risk tolerance varies, but we all tend to have a tendency to see a reduced risk as a reason to push things further. This gives rise to the situation where if we make changes that are perceived as adding more safety than it actually does, we even risk actually causing more injury than we prevent
  - schoen 9y ago
    In behavioral economics, this phenomenon is sometimes called "risk compensation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
- sytelus 9y ago
  Mountaineering above 6000m is never extraordinarily safe. During past 5 years death rate on Everest is 3.4%. That's pretty high if you ask me. If you were sitting in a bus full of climbers, one of them wasn't going back home. Sure, there is always a lot of stupidity but pretty much its just nature. No one is still able to predict weather perfectly, no one can tell who is going to get AMS and people even sitting on basecamp can just die because of avalanche.
sus_007 9y ago
Despite living close to the Sagarmatha (equivalent of Everest in Nepali) region, I myself haven't even dared thinking about giving it a try(not that I can't afford it). The mere suggestion of “conquering Everest” sounds ridiculous. Having conversed with few of them I've realized that many climbers do in fact posses this mentality, and while that may be fine for them, I personally believe that the true beauty in climbing is the experience – both in appreciating nature’s wonder while challenging yourself physically in new ways and to your personal limits. While reaching the top of mountains can be an exhilarating experience, irrational obsession with summiting (also called Summit Fever) can be deadly. So what is my point? It is my opinion that for most people attempting to climb to the summit of Mt. Everest is simply dumb.

InclinedPlane 9y ago

Everest is the worst example of mountaineering. For many it's just an achievement, not an experience, not something that's worthwhile on its own merits. And in that light it makes it more obvious why so many people fall into the trap of tackling it unprepared. Many people don't understand how challenging it can be and they think that if they just struggle through and be miserable for a few days they'll come out the other end with a shiny brass ring they can decorate their life with, something that will serve as bragging rights and help define who they are as a person for their life. It's really not much different than, say, college, for that matter. When you have people who have been rewarded so much for gaming the system, when you have people who struggle constantly in the search for authenticity and meaning in their life they are prone to try to fake their way through.

whatever_dude 9y ago
I can't speak for climbers from other countries, but I feel that the American attitude towards achievements like "climbing mountain X" is that they want exactly that, a checkmark on a list. They want to get in and get out as fast as possible. The destination is the goal, and everything in between is just noise that should be overcome as swiftly as possible. This is, at least, my anedoctal experience. I go hiking recreational level hills with (American) friends frequently and it always annoys me how they just want to get to the top as soon as possible and then come back down just as quickly. I instead frequently stop on my way to look around and admire the view (and not just at officially sanctioned "lookout points") and this is something they never have any inclination on doing.
- crimsonalucard 9y ago
  Coincidentally, Nepal is one of the best places to trek in the world, thanks in part to the natural beauty and tea houses located everywhere. It's worth it just to visit base camp.
- totalZero 9y ago
  This seems like a pretty broad generalization, deriving an entire culture's adventure sport habits from a hill hike with friends. Not saying you're wrong, not saying you're right. For me, it takes a little more to characterize 300+ million people.
  - SirZimzim 9y ago
    I've lived in a few countries and I'd say the whole constant need to be first or ahead of others is definitely a characteristic among Americans.
  - whatever_dude 9y ago
    I did say it is anedoctal, but to make it more clear: this was not from just "a hill hike with friends". This is my experience from years hiking with these and other friends in the US, noticing their behavior (and those of other people in the same trails) on both the West and East coast, and contrasting it to the behavior seen in comparable trails outside of the US. After a while it starts feeling more like a common pattern, instead of an isolated thing.
    - hprotagonist 9y ago
      hikers and alpinists are totally different breeds, though. The americans writing articles for the AAC journal or evening sends or whatnot are not peak-baggers. conversely, the grade-seekers of 8a.nu are primarily european.
      - InclinedPlane 9y ago
        Anecdotally I'd say that's true. The majority of the most active climbers and alpinists that I've been around don't seem to be overly goal oriented about it, though there definitely is a subset who are.

sandworm101 9y ago

I wouldn't blame the mountain. It isn't dangerous anymore, not like it once was. Modern climbing is extraordinarily safe. We now have gear that we can actually trust. Ropes are now basically magic. But more importantly, modern communications and weather forecasting mean climbers no longer need step into the void. Dangers that were once total unknowns are now calculable. It is much easier to be bold when you know what you are about to face. So I'd say the mountain is exactly as dangerous as those climbing it want it to make it. We are just now realizing that well-informed and equipped people often take risks that previous less-informed generations would never consider. Soloing everest was once crazy, but I wouldn't be surprised if some idiot out there is planning the first free-solo on-sight.

vidarh 9y ago
Part of the issue is that people seek out risk. If something is made safer, people will not go "great, no we're not taking any risks" - they will seek out something riskier. Peoples individual risk tolerance varies, but we all tend to have a tendency to see a reduced risk as a reason to push things further. This gives rise to the situation where if we make changes that are perceived as adding more safety than it actually does, we even risk actually causing more injury than we prevent
- schoen 9y ago
  In behavioral economics, this phenomenon is sometimes called "risk compensation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation
sytelus 9y ago
Mountaineering above 6000m is never extraordinarily safe. During past 5 years death rate on Everest is 3.4%. That's pretty high if you ask me. If you were sitting in a bus full of climbers, one of them wasn't going back home. Sure, there is always a lot of stupidity but pretty much its just nature. No one is still able to predict weather perfectly, no one can tell who is going to get AMS and people even sitting on basecamp can just die because of avalanche.

sus_007 9y ago

Despite living close to the Sagarmatha (equivalent of Everest in Nepali) region, I myself haven't even dared thinking about giving it a try(not that I can't afford it). The mere suggestion of “conquering Everest” sounds ridiculous. Having conversed with few of them I've realized that many climbers do in fact posses this mentality, and while that may be fine for them, I personally believe that the true beauty in climbing is the experience – both in appreciating nature’s wonder while challenging yourself physically in new ways and to your personal limits. While reaching the top of mountains can be an exhilarating experience, irrational obsession with summiting (also called Summit Fever) can be deadly. So what is my point? It is my opinion that for most people attempting to climb to the summit of Mt. Everest is simply dumb.