4 ms·

> $200 piece of cast-iron junk. He used an alu bike... mechanical disc brakes worked for a decade before hydraulics.

username223 9y ago
> He used an alu bike... My bad -- the name "IRON HORSE" threw me off. Still, the thing supposedly weighs 37.75 lbs., which is terrible for a bike. For $1500, he could get something with much better parts weighing 20-25 lbs.
- jordache 9y ago
  In an e-bike assisted context, the extra 10-15 lb, most of which is non-rotational weight is negligible. A 20-25 lb steel bike with sufficient robustness does not really exist for $1500. Something like a surly ogre is about 30lbs. To shave off that extra 5-10 lbs you're looking at some very performance oriented parts and/or construction with extremely elevated prices.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    It wasn't that hard to find 20 pound aluminum road bikes before CF took over.
    - jordache 9y ago
      uhhh you don't want to electrify a 20lbs alum road bike. when electrifying you value robustness over light weight. The energy from the motor more than makes up for the few extra lbs it has to haul.
      - CydeWeys 9y ago
        Yeah, some people don't realize that what you want to electrify is more akin to a hardtail mountain bike. You want big sturdy tires that can handle hitting an imperfection in the road at high speed, and front suspension helps for the same reason. Bigger tires allow for better braking, too. Riding an electrified road bike at 30 mph all the time sounds terrifying and potentially dangerous.
- eesmith 9y ago
  Ahem. Speaking with mock outrage, as someone who goes bike camping with front and back panniers and a tent, I'll point out that my bike is about 40 lbs, unloaded. Eg, https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/trekking/collection/worldtraveller.htm?frame=H https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/trekking/collection/worldtrave... . ;) 'Course, my average speed is about 8mph. I like to stop, look at things, and read the signs, and sometimes travel along hard-pack dirt roads. Their e-trekking bike is about 54 lbs. I know what I'm going to get for myself when I get older.
  - username223 9y ago
    That's some heavy hardware! A bike trailer is 3-4 lbs, and a 20-lb road bike is around $1500 new (far less used). You'll pay more in money or weight for a cross or mountain bike, but 40 lbs is still pretty painful. EDIT: Pro deal is 50-60% of retail, so you can buy a used bike for about half of the sticker price.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      You may well pay more in aerodynamic penalty on the bike trailer than you would in extra weight on the bike itself, though. It merits calculation. Also ... biking with a trailer just isn't fun. I'd much rather bike on a loaded-down heavy bike than on a lighter bike dragging a trailer behind it. And there's the fact that I'm sure you must be underestimating something, because a bike trailer has additional weight from its frame, wheel, and tire to add on that a fully-loaded bike does not. I don't see how it's possible that, for equal carrying capacity, adding a trailer could somehow reduce total mass.
      - eesmith 9y ago
        I don't bike particularly fast, so I'll bring up other factors. The wheels of the bike trailer add additional rolling resistance, and more I think than putting the same weight on two wheels. That is, the trailer wheels are smaller, which means there's more force against the direction of travel. Most bike trailers have two wheels side-by-side. If you are biking down a dirt road, then odds are there are packed ruts side-by-side, with a grassy strip in the middle. With a 2-wheel bike, it's easy to go along one of the ruts. With side-by-side wheels it's more likely that one of the wheels will be in the grass. (My spouse uses a trike, and has this problem.) I think username223 doesn't understand where the weight comes in, and is estimating what the weight "should" be based on a road bike + trailer combo. A bike like mine, for bike camping, is heavier than a road bike. I also use it for dirt roads, so it needs to handle more shocks and vibration. The racks and fenders, and of course the gear, adds more weight. There are also not one but two kickstands on mine - the one on the front tire is needed if I'm carrying front panniers, because otherwise the wheel may twist and the weight pulls it down. This then calls for a stronger frame, which adds even more weight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle gives more on the topic.
CydeWeys 9y ago
Mechanical disc brakes certainly do not work nearly as well as hydraulic disc brakes in high-power-output electric bike applications. What they "worked" on is manual bikes, but even for manual bikes, hydraulic brakes are superior; it's just that a manual bike isn't pushing the limitations of what mechanical brakes can do as often.
- jordache 9y ago
  hydraulic mostly provides improved actuation via greater modulation resolution. Think about it - It's a hydraulic system vs mechanical. No cable stretch and no friction along brake housing. However greater modulation resolution is not a major benefit in the context of ebike. The bike is heavier so you just need sufficient braking power. A larger rotor radius would help more than going from mechanical to hydraulic. hydraulic alone doesn't provide greater braking power vs cable pulled calipers.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    I get what you're saying, but in practice, cheap mechanical disc brakes also suffer from less braking force, whereas there aren't particularly cheap hydraulic disc brake systems, so all the hydraulic disc brakes do have better braking force in addition to greater modulation characteristics. So to simplify the point I'm making, he needs better brakes.

> He used an alu bike... My bad -- the name "IRON HORSE" threw me off. Still, the thing supposedly weighs 37.75 lbs., which is terrible for a bike. For $1500, he could get something with much better parts weighing 20-25 lbs.

jordache 9y ago
In an e-bike assisted context, the extra 10-15 lb, most of which is non-rotational weight is negligible. A 20-25 lb steel bike with sufficient robustness does not really exist for $1500. Something like a surly ogre is about 30lbs. To shave off that extra 5-10 lbs you're looking at some very performance oriented parts and/or construction with extremely elevated prices.
- kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
  It wasn't that hard to find 20 pound aluminum road bikes before CF took over.
  - jordache 9y ago
    uhhh you don't want to electrify a 20lbs alum road bike. when electrifying you value robustness over light weight. The energy from the motor more than makes up for the few extra lbs it has to haul.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Yeah, some people don't realize that what you want to electrify is more akin to a hardtail mountain bike. You want big sturdy tires that can handle hitting an imperfection in the road at high speed, and front suspension helps for the same reason. Bigger tires allow for better braking, too. Riding an electrified road bike at 30 mph all the time sounds terrifying and potentially dangerous.
eesmith 9y ago
Ahem. Speaking with mock outrage, as someone who goes bike camping with front and back panniers and a tent, I'll point out that my bike is about 40 lbs, unloaded. Eg, https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/trekking/collection/worldtraveller.htm?frame=H https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/trekking/collection/worldtrave... . ;) 'Course, my average speed is about 8mph. I like to stop, look at things, and read the signs, and sometimes travel along hard-pack dirt roads. Their e-trekking bike is about 54 lbs. I know what I'm going to get for myself when I get older.
- username223 9y ago
  That's some heavy hardware! A bike trailer is 3-4 lbs, and a 20-lb road bike is around $1500 new (far less used). You'll pay more in money or weight for a cross or mountain bike, but 40 lbs is still pretty painful. EDIT: Pro deal is 50-60% of retail, so you can buy a used bike for about half of the sticker price.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    You may well pay more in aerodynamic penalty on the bike trailer than you would in extra weight on the bike itself, though. It merits calculation. Also ... biking with a trailer just isn't fun. I'd much rather bike on a loaded-down heavy bike than on a lighter bike dragging a trailer behind it. And there's the fact that I'm sure you must be underestimating something, because a bike trailer has additional weight from its frame, wheel, and tire to add on that a fully-loaded bike does not. I don't see how it's possible that, for equal carrying capacity, adding a trailer could somehow reduce total mass.
    - eesmith 9y ago
      I don't bike particularly fast, so I'll bring up other factors. The wheels of the bike trailer add additional rolling resistance, and more I think than putting the same weight on two wheels. That is, the trailer wheels are smaller, which means there's more force against the direction of travel. Most bike trailers have two wheels side-by-side. If you are biking down a dirt road, then odds are there are packed ruts side-by-side, with a grassy strip in the middle. With a 2-wheel bike, it's easy to go along one of the ruts. With side-by-side wheels it's more likely that one of the wheels will be in the grass. (My spouse uses a trike, and has this problem.) I think username223 doesn't understand where the weight comes in, and is estimating what the weight "should" be based on a road bike + trailer combo. A bike like mine, for bike camping, is heavier than a road bike. I also use it for dirt roads, so it needs to handle more shocks and vibration. The racks and fenders, and of course the gear, adds more weight. There are also not one but two kickstands on mine - the one on the front tire is needed if I'm carrying front panniers, because otherwise the wheel may twist and the weight pulls it down. This then calls for a stronger frame, which adds even more weight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle gives more on the topic.

CydeWeys 9y ago

Mechanical disc brakes certainly do not work nearly as well as hydraulic disc brakes in high-power-output electric bike applications. What they "worked" on is manual bikes, but even for manual bikes, hydraulic brakes are superior; it's just that a manual bike isn't pushing the limitations of what mechanical brakes can do as often.

jordache 9y ago
hydraulic mostly provides improved actuation via greater modulation resolution. Think about it - It's a hydraulic system vs mechanical. No cable stretch and no friction along brake housing. However greater modulation resolution is not a major benefit in the context of ebike. The bike is heavier so you just need sufficient braking power. A larger rotor radius would help more than going from mechanical to hydraulic. hydraulic alone doesn't provide greater braking power vs cable pulled calipers.
- CydeWeys 9y ago
  I get what you're saying, but in practice, cheap mechanical disc brakes also suffer from less braking force, whereas there aren't particularly cheap hydraulic disc brake systems, so all the hydraulic disc brakes do have better braking force in addition to greater modulation characteristics. So to simplify the point I'm making, he needs better brakes.