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An unarmed man was shot and killed in his own doorway. The officer that shot him could not have seen a weapon, because there was no weapon. That is all the inf

An unarmed man was shot and killed in his own doorway. The officer that shot him could not have seen a weapon, because there was no weapon. That is all the information that is necessary to make a determination not only that he should be charged with murder, but convicted of it.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
I know, why even bother with a trial? We've all read the news accounts, let's string him up! /s So due process is one concern here, but also, my concern here is more about the fucked up system we have. Is it reasonable to create a broken system, heavily arm cops, train them poorly, get them hyped up, and send them off with bad intel into (what they believe is) an incredibly high-stakes / high-stress environment, and then when one of them makes a human mistake that anyone could make in that situation, toss them in jail and throw away the key? EDIT: this is an excellent article on the mentality that I'm talking about: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-gun-shooting-training-ferguson/383681/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-...
- downandout 9y ago
  >I know, why even bother with a trial? We've all read the news accounts, let's string him up! They have the weapon he fired, police body cam footage, the bullet, and the fact that there was no weapon on the victim, which means the cop did not see a weapon. So he just fired because the guy put his hands down and then obeyed commands to put them back up, which last I heard was not on the list of causes for justifiable homicide. This wasn’t a “mistake that anyone could make”. You don’t shoot guns at people unless they have a gun and are about to shoot at you, even if you happen to wear a badge. So yes, tossing him in jail and for a long time seems like the appropriate outcome in light of the evidence.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    Yeah, that’s not how due process works. You don’t know what happened or what the evidence is. And from your responses, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you have no law enforcement experience or training. Sorry, but the outrage you feel upon reading a few news stories online is vastly insufficient to imprison another human. You’re talking about simple mob justice, that’s all.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      > You’re talking about simple mob justice, that’s all. Unfortunate turn of phrase, when it's the police who kill over a thousand citizens without trial or often arrest each year.
      - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
        And that’s a horrible problem, but the answer isn’t more senseless violence as payback.
    - rland12 9y ago
      The issue is that the officer is not facing a trial. No chance for due process because the people are not bringing a case, so it doesn't matter what the evidence is. He is on administrative leave.
      - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
        I agree, not saying he shouldn’t be held accountable. I was responding to the idea that we know what happened, he’s obviously a murderer, etc.
    - anigbrowl 9y ago
      It's too bad you can't work up this level of sanctimony on behalf of the innocent dead guy. We have quite a lot of information and evidence already, and while our conclusions must necessarily be tentative we are absolutely entitled to form a preliminary impression.
- anigbrowl 9y ago
  These poor helpless cops! Next you'll be asking them to exercise the same level of reason and common sense as civilians! OK, I get that you're saying they're sort of pre-emptively traumatized by their training and socialization and I partly agree, but in saying that you're implicitly also saying they have less responsibility than civilians with no training, which is an inherently self-defeating position. Look, in this situation they're armed, covered, and have a strong numerical advantage etc. etc. etc. and you're offering a panic defense. If I was to rely on my anxiety level to govern my conduct I'd have killed 30 or 40 people by now.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago

I know, why even bother with a trial? We've all read the news accounts, let's string him up! /s So due process is one concern here, but also, my concern here is more about the fucked up system we have. Is it reasonable to create a broken system, heavily arm cops, train them poorly, get them hyped up, and send them off with bad intel into (what they believe is) an incredibly high-stakes / high-stress environment, and then when one of them makes a human mistake that anyone could make in that situation, toss them in jail and throw away the key? EDIT: this is an excellent article on the mentality that I'm talking about: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-gun-shooting-training-ferguson/383681/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/police-...

downandout 9y ago
>I know, why even bother with a trial? We've all read the news accounts, let's string him up! They have the weapon he fired, police body cam footage, the bullet, and the fact that there was no weapon on the victim, which means the cop did not see a weapon. So he just fired because the guy put his hands down and then obeyed commands to put them back up, which last I heard was not on the list of causes for justifiable homicide. This wasn’t a “mistake that anyone could make”. You don’t shoot guns at people unless they have a gun and are about to shoot at you, even if you happen to wear a badge. So yes, tossing him in jail and for a long time seems like the appropriate outcome in light of the evidence.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  Yeah, that’s not how due process works. You don’t know what happened or what the evidence is. And from your responses, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you have no law enforcement experience or training. Sorry, but the outrage you feel upon reading a few news stories online is vastly insufficient to imprison another human. You’re talking about simple mob justice, that’s all.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > You’re talking about simple mob justice, that’s all. Unfortunate turn of phrase, when it's the police who kill over a thousand citizens without trial or often arrest each year.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      And that’s a horrible problem, but the answer isn’t more senseless violence as payback.
  - rland12 9y ago
    The issue is that the officer is not facing a trial. No chance for due process because the people are not bringing a case, so it doesn't matter what the evidence is. He is on administrative leave.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      I agree, not saying he shouldn’t be held accountable. I was responding to the idea that we know what happened, he’s obviously a murderer, etc.
  - anigbrowl 9y ago
    It's too bad you can't work up this level of sanctimony on behalf of the innocent dead guy. We have quite a lot of information and evidence already, and while our conclusions must necessarily be tentative we are absolutely entitled to form a preliminary impression.
anigbrowl 9y ago
These poor helpless cops! Next you'll be asking them to exercise the same level of reason and common sense as civilians! OK, I get that you're saying they're sort of pre-emptively traumatized by their training and socialization and I partly agree, but in saying that you're implicitly also saying they have less responsibility than civilians with no training, which is an inherently self-defeating position. Look, in this situation they're armed, covered, and have a strong numerical advantage etc. etc. etc. and you're offering a panic defense. If I was to rely on my anxiety level to govern my conduct I'd have killed 30 or 40 people by now.