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I'm glad this person is an adult located in the U.S. Hopefully this makes for swift and severe justice. I'm sad to learn the victim was the father of two child

I'm glad this person is an adult located in the U.S. Hopefully this makes for swift and severe justice. I'm sad to learn the victim was the father of two children. And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position where police are pointing guns at me and shouting instructions, I expect I will be shot. I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that.

TheCondor 9y ago
As a person with good hearing I’m wondering what you’re supposed to do in a situation like this to avoid getting killed. Anyone know of any stats on the military service experiences of these shooter cops? Possible ptsd? Is this fear the officer had just the result of police training or was he dodging IEDs in Iraq? I’m just curious. And WTF is it with “gamers?”
- maxerickson 9y ago
  US military people are often quite critical of the rules of engagement employed by US police. Even in potentially more dangerous situations the military typically is much more disciplined and slower to use lethal force.
  - burntwater 9y ago
    Perhaps one answer here is to require military service before becoming a police officer. That potentially could solve two issues; better trained police, and employment for veterans.
    - ThrowawayR2 9y ago
      > Perhaps one answer here is to require military service before becoming a police officer. People will protest even more loudly over "police militarization" and not without some justification. Beyond that, it reduces the supply of police officers to people willing to serve in the military and then become police officers afterward instead of some other career.
    - qaq 9y ago
      I wonder why you are being down voted? Many military guys have served in way more dangerous places while observing in many situation rules like do not fire unless fired upon etc.
      - burntwater 9y ago
        I wondered the same thing! But didn't bring it up since complaining about votes is frowned upon. But I really was puzzled. Is it that controversial of a statement/question? I don't see it.
RobertoG 9y ago
>" I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that." Watching the video of the shooting in the hotel hallway a few days ago, I think that the answer is just go to the floor with your hands visible and don't move, never mind what they say. I think there is a training problem. For instance, in that video, they control the situation using fear, that it's, I think, the correct thing to do. But then, when they guy is trying to comply with everything, almost crying and obviously confused, instead of trying to calm him, they keep scaring him. When they shoot, they shoot five times, five times in a hotel hallway. It's like they are trained for war or even video-games instead of police action.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > Watching the video of the shooting in the hotel hallway a few days ago, I think that the answer is just go to the floor with your hands visible and don't move, never mind what they say. And get shot anyway for not obeying orders.
- burntwater 9y ago
  That video, among all that I've had the misfortune of viewing, is the one that has most resonated - and scared - me, because it's one I can so easily see myself being in. White. Drunk. In a hotel. Throughly confused and scared. That's me. Yes, I can get on the floor and not move. But I have absolutely no faith that "do nothing" won't also get me killed for, as the other person mentioned, disobeying orders.
- stordoff 9y ago
  > But then, when they guy is trying to comply with everything, almost crying and obviously confused, instead of trying to calm him, they keep scaring him. This is partially why one of the emphases of British policing is de-escalation (even backing away if you have to), which I will grant is _far_ easier when neither side is likely to have firearms (though the same principles are used by firearms officers). Backing your suspect into a corner, or unduly pressuring them, helps neither side.
- gouggoug 9y ago
  > It's like they are trained for [...] video-games instead of police action. There's an Ad for the US Army which is basically the Call Of Duty video game advertising the US Army...
Dove 9y ago
> And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I can understand that, but I recommend caution when it comes to judgement. Combat is every bit as technical as system architecture, and I think it requires related experience to judge fairly. Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as well as they prepare you to critique a system security posture. Which is to say, not at all. The best way to understand why police react the way they do is get a little experience with the real thing: watch footage of actual confrontations. Here are some examples: https://youtu.be/uyEE_IpjstA https://youtu.be/uyEE_IpjstA https://youtu.be/2mnTE85LYFU https://youtu.be/2mnTE85LYFU https://youtu.be/p6mds5tDqDw https://youtu.be/p6mds5tDqDw Combat is fast. When someone makes a sudden move, you have to react immediately or you will lose. I'm mad that this went down the way it did, too, but from the description, it is very understandable. It is tragic that people with no combat background just don't understand what looks threatening and why. You'd no doubt consider it foolhardy to point an airsoft pistol at a policeman, but probably don't understand that a movement that could be a fast concealed weapon draw is just as threatening. I do a little martial arts, and we train that if someone is hiding their hand, assume it contains a knife or gun. If you have your hand behind you or in your pocket and move it fast, I have to react as if it's an attack, as that's the only way to avoid it. It takes too long to identify a weapon. Look at some videos of knife attacks, for example: https://youtu.be/dqnwsljTVt8 https://youtu.be/dqnwsljTVt8 https://youtu.be/ts2LCbDQkeg https://youtu.be/ts2LCbDQkeg They are fast and sudden. The only way you can hope to defend them is to assume a hand you don't see is about to hit you with a knife. Which is why police are jumpy. This is the environment they work in and what they train for. If your day to day life involves no violence, your ideas about what's reasonable in that context don't come from applicable experience. > I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position where police are pointing guns at me and shouting instructions, I expect I will be shot. I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that. Move slowly. Keep your hands very visible and very obviously empty. Even if you can't hear the officer's commands, moving slowly and keeping your hands visible will keep you from appearing suddenly threatening, which should let you get the situation sorted out. I can't help you if you run into a policeman who is a bully, but most of these tragedies are misunderstandings between good people. The very best way to avoid that is to do everything slowly and deliberately. Don't panic. Just move slowly and carefully. Pretend the cop is a dinosaur or something and sudden movement will provoke him.
masklinn 9y ago
> I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that. Nothing, it seems. If you find yourself in that situation, it's a roll of the dice whether you're getting a jumpy or stressed-out cop who'll end up shooting you no matter what, and having no hearing issues probably won't help as stumbling, twitching or otherwise being confused by contradictory orders will get you shot anyway. In the long term, probably fighting for the demilitarisation of your local precinct and the shutdown of all these bullshit "SWAT units", in the short term… wearing a bulletproof vest when answering the door?
- burntwater 9y ago
  > wearing a bulletproof vest You joke, but I've considered it. Of course, the vest is probably visible and would be perceived as a threat.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > You joke Sad as it is, the suggestion was serious, and one of the things I considered if I ever had to live in the US. > Of course, the vest is probably visible and would be perceived as a threat. There are concealable vests (for undercover officers) which are significantly less noticeable than the classic "tactical" vest. I don't know how easy it is to access them without being an undercover LEO though, they need to be measured and fitted to your body specs.
    - averagewall 9y ago
      Most people shot in the US are already involved in a problem beforehand. You're not at much risk as a stranger. Death by driving or overeating are more realistic risks in the US. It's like worrying about terrorism. It really does only happen to other people.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    There is a market for less conspicuous bulletproof "clothing" (chest area only), and prices have fallen in recent years. Just saying.

TheCondor 9y ago

As a person with good hearing I’m wondering what you’re supposed to do in a situation like this to avoid getting killed. Anyone know of any stats on the military service experiences of these shooter cops? Possible ptsd? Is this fear the officer had just the result of police training or was he dodging IEDs in Iraq? I’m just curious. And WTF is it with “gamers?”

maxerickson 9y ago
US military people are often quite critical of the rules of engagement employed by US police. Even in potentially more dangerous situations the military typically is much more disciplined and slower to use lethal force.
- burntwater 9y ago
  Perhaps one answer here is to require military service before becoming a police officer. That potentially could solve two issues; better trained police, and employment for veterans.
  - ThrowawayR2 9y ago
    > Perhaps one answer here is to require military service before becoming a police officer. People will protest even more loudly over "police militarization" and not without some justification. Beyond that, it reduces the supply of police officers to people willing to serve in the military and then become police officers afterward instead of some other career.
  - qaq 9y ago
    I wonder why you are being down voted? Many military guys have served in way more dangerous places while observing in many situation rules like do not fire unless fired upon etc.
    - burntwater 9y ago
      I wondered the same thing! But didn't bring it up since complaining about votes is frowned upon. But I really was puzzled. Is it that controversial of a statement/question? I don't see it.

RobertoG 9y ago

>" I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that." Watching the video of the shooting in the hotel hallway a few days ago, I think that the answer is just go to the floor with your hands visible and don't move, never mind what they say. I think there is a training problem. For instance, in that video, they control the situation using fear, that it's, I think, the correct thing to do. But then, when they guy is trying to comply with everything, almost crying and obviously confused, instead of trying to calm him, they keep scaring him. When they shoot, they shoot five times, five times in a hotel hallway. It's like they are trained for war or even video-games instead of police action.

masklinn 9y ago
> Watching the video of the shooting in the hotel hallway a few days ago, I think that the answer is just go to the floor with your hands visible and don't move, never mind what they say. And get shot anyway for not obeying orders.
burntwater 9y ago
That video, among all that I've had the misfortune of viewing, is the one that has most resonated - and scared - me, because it's one I can so easily see myself being in. White. Drunk. In a hotel. Throughly confused and scared. That's me. Yes, I can get on the floor and not move. But I have absolutely no faith that "do nothing" won't also get me killed for, as the other person mentioned, disobeying orders.
stordoff 9y ago
> But then, when they guy is trying to comply with everything, almost crying and obviously confused, instead of trying to calm him, they keep scaring him. This is partially why one of the emphases of British policing is de-escalation (even backing away if you have to), which I will grant is _far_ easier when neither side is likely to have firearms (though the same principles are used by firearms officers). Backing your suspect into a corner, or unduly pressuring them, helps neither side.
gouggoug 9y ago
> It's like they are trained for [...] video-games instead of police action. There's an Ad for the US Army which is basically the Call Of Duty video game advertising the US Army...

Dove 9y ago

> And I'm mad that police are shooting people, innocent or not, based on vague gestures that sorta, maybe, if you look at it from the right angle, looks a little threatening. I can understand that, but I recommend caution when it comes to judgement. Combat is every bit as technical as system architecture, and I think it requires related experience to judge fairly. Movies prepare you to critique a fighter about as well as they prepare you to critique a system security posture. Which is to say, not at all. The best way to understand why police react the way they do is get a little experience with the real thing: watch footage of actual confrontations. Here are some examples: https://youtu.be/uyEE_IpjstA https://youtu.be/uyEE_IpjstA https://youtu.be/2mnTE85LYFU https://youtu.be/2mnTE85LYFU https://youtu.be/p6mds5tDqDw https://youtu.be/p6mds5tDqDw Combat is fast. When someone makes a sudden move, you have to react immediately or you will lose. I'm mad that this went down the way it did, too, but from the description, it is very understandable. It is tragic that people with no combat background just don't understand what looks threatening and why. You'd no doubt consider it foolhardy to point an airsoft pistol at a policeman, but probably don't understand that a movement that could be a fast concealed weapon draw is just as threatening. I do a little martial arts, and we train that if someone is hiding their hand, assume it contains a knife or gun. If you have your hand behind you or in your pocket and move it fast, I have to react as if it's an attack, as that's the only way to avoid it. It takes too long to identify a weapon. Look at some videos of knife attacks, for example: https://youtu.be/dqnwsljTVt8 https://youtu.be/dqnwsljTVt8 https://youtu.be/ts2LCbDQkeg https://youtu.be/ts2LCbDQkeg They are fast and sudden. The only way you can hope to defend them is to assume a hand you don't see is about to hit you with a knife. Which is why police are jumpy. This is the environment they work in and what they train for. If your day to day life involves no violence, your ideas about what's reasonable in that context don't come from applicable experience. > I said yesterday that, as a hearing-impaired person, if I'm ever in a position where police are pointing guns at me and shouting instructions, I expect I will be shot. I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that. Move slowly. Keep your hands very visible and very obviously empty. Even if you can't hear the officer's commands, moving slowly and keeping your hands visible will keep you from appearing suddenly threatening, which should let you get the situation sorted out. I can't help you if you run into a policeman who is a bully, but most of these tragedies are misunderstandings between good people. The very best way to avoid that is to do everything slowly and deliberately. Don't panic. Just move slowly and carefully. Pretend the cop is a dinosaur or something and sudden movement will provoke him.

masklinn 9y ago

> I'm honestly not sure what I can do to prevent that. Nothing, it seems. If you find yourself in that situation, it's a roll of the dice whether you're getting a jumpy or stressed-out cop who'll end up shooting you no matter what, and having no hearing issues probably won't help as stumbling, twitching or otherwise being confused by contradictory orders will get you shot anyway. In the long term, probably fighting for the demilitarisation of your local precinct and the shutdown of all these bullshit "SWAT units", in the short term… wearing a bulletproof vest when answering the door?

burntwater 9y ago
> wearing a bulletproof vest You joke, but I've considered it. Of course, the vest is probably visible and would be perceived as a threat.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > You joke Sad as it is, the suggestion was serious, and one of the things I considered if I ever had to live in the US. > Of course, the vest is probably visible and would be perceived as a threat. There are concealable vests (for undercover officers) which are significantly less noticeable than the classic "tactical" vest. I don't know how easy it is to access them without being an undercover LEO though, they need to be measured and fitted to your body specs.
  - averagewall 9y ago
    Most people shot in the US are already involved in a problem beforehand. You're not at much risk as a stranger. Death by driving or overeating are more realistic risks in the US. It's like worrying about terrorism. It really does only happen to other people.
- doktrin 9y ago
  There is a market for less conspicuous bulletproof "clothing" (chest area only), and prices have fallen in recent years. Just saying.