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For starters, we could reinforce the Batson rule [1] and mandate that any jury selected must mirror the racial and sexual makeup of its community, +/- 10%. Hav

by ethbro 9y ago

For starters, we could reinforce the Batson rule [1] and mandate that any jury selected must mirror the racial and sexual makeup of its community, +/- 10%. Having to prove racial discrimination in jury selection is an absurdly high bar, and usually impossible. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batson_v._Kentucky https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batson_v._Kentucky

b6 9y ago
I understand what you're going for, but I think this idea would just reinforce the imaginary walls we use to group humans. The underlying idea is that X-people understand X-people, where X is some arbitrary group, but non-X-people lack the perspective they need. For example, we consider people with black skin to be a group, but not people with blue eyes, or people who can curl their tongues. Let's just work our way toward thinking people are just people instead.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Sure, but let’s not pretend the last millennium didn’t happen or shape the present in critical ways.
  - PrimHelios 9y ago
    How is that in any way relevant? How does that at all mean that black people better understand black people, or justify explicitly selecting a jury on the basis of something arbitrary like skin color?
    - QAPereo 9y ago
      I’m saying that if you want to build a post racial world, it’s not enough for the historical beneficiaries of the previous system to just say, “all done now!” A few hundred years of treating people as though they were less than human based on the color of their skin has lasting consequences requiring repair. It’s not enough to simply acknowledge past misdeeds, while benefiting from generations of abuse and marginalization which you have no intention to address. Of course that assumes you really think that most people are as marvelously rational as you.
      - PrimHelios 9y ago
        So build a post-racial world by building up racial barriers and continuing the "other"-ness of people with different skin colors? I'm not trying to be a dick or strawman you, that's the only thing I can get from this comment.
        QAPereo 9y ago
        Build a post racial world by acknowledging that racial barriers exist independently of your thoughts, seek to weaken them and repair ongoing harm. The most powerful group playing pretend isn’t going to fix a damned thing. Trying to pretend that everything is better now... please explain how you see this working? Edit: Or just downvote and move on, that says something too.
        PrimHelios 9y ago
        >Edit: Or just downvote and move on, that says something too. I have 224 karma, I don't even have the ability to downvote [0]. I'm sorry I have shit I need to do and can't respond to you immediately. [0]: https://imgur.com/a/5YnaY https://imgur.com/a/5YnaY (ignore the hilarious typo in this) EDIT: Funny how you claim I'm downvoting you, then when I say I'm not, you downvote and flag me. That's beyond petty and childish.
        linkregister 9y ago
        Note about HN down voting: when replying to a post, the parent poster cannot down vote you. The down vote you were awarded came from another commenter. At this time, this comment has positive karma. At any rate, complaining about down voting distracts from your very good point.
        QAPereo 9y ago
        Fair enough, I’ll keep that in mind going forward. Thanks for taking the time to teach.
- ethbro 9y ago
  The problem is that juries without a minority on them absolutely find minorities guilty at a higher rate than when one or more minorities are on the jury. As the thread below noted, it's not fair to have historical conditions that produced winners (white men, countries with colonies, etc) and then make things more equal by saying "That's all over" and failing to recognize the results of previous injustice that are still embedded in our lives. I could have offered other suggestions. I specifically said 'juries that roughly reflect their communities in racial and sexual senses'. I don't feel that's an unreasonably burdensome ask in pursuit of Justice. http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1349%26context%3Dheinzworks&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjL4PX-0LLYAhVJ4YMKHSY-CWEQFggaMAU&usg=AOvVaw3Ys8e-4lDwIwwQo3nMflRF http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D13...
hodgesrm 9y ago
You might have difficulty empaneling juries if this were a requirement. What makes a good jury goes well beyond racial or sexual makeup. Also, in many places the jury pools don't match the community at large. This approach would therefore have the effect of jeopardizing the right to jury trial without really alleviating injustice. A more fruitful approach might be to try to make the pools more balanced. Getting more community participation in the justice system seems like a very good thing at multiple levels.
- ethbro 9y ago
  A right to a trial by a racially biased jury isn't much of a right in my opinion. I'm all for throwing people in jail if they don't want to serve on a jury.
- curun1r 9y ago
  I think we'd do better to, at least at first, start solving some of the reasons why our jury demographics are so skewed. Stronger protections for workers that need time off (there should be no work hardship exemption and employers should be forced to give jurors full pay for the duration of the trial) would be a good start to not discriminate against poorer people who can't take off from work without struggling financially or getting fired. Also, criminal convictions shouldn't disqualify someone after they've served their sentences. The current system disqualifies a disproportionate number of minorities and that leaves predominantly-white juries to convict even more minorities...a self-reinforcing cycle. Also, the SCotUS needs to recommit to the Batson doctrine to prevent prosecutors from dismissing minority jurors based on race.

by ethbro 9y ago

b6 9y ago

I understand what you're going for, but I think this idea would just reinforce the imaginary walls we use to group humans. The underlying idea is that X-people understand X-people, where X is some arbitrary group, but non-X-people lack the perspective they need. For example, we consider people with black skin to be a group, but not people with blue eyes, or people who can curl their tongues. Let's just work our way toward thinking people are just people instead.

QAPereo 9y ago
Sure, but let’s not pretend the last millennium didn’t happen or shape the present in critical ways.
- PrimHelios 9y ago
  How is that in any way relevant? How does that at all mean that black people better understand black people, or justify explicitly selecting a jury on the basis of something arbitrary like skin color?
  - QAPereo 9y ago
    I’m saying that if you want to build a post racial world, it’s not enough for the historical beneficiaries of the previous system to just say, “all done now!” A few hundred years of treating people as though they were less than human based on the color of their skin has lasting consequences requiring repair. It’s not enough to simply acknowledge past misdeeds, while benefiting from generations of abuse and marginalization which you have no intention to address. Of course that assumes you really think that most people are as marvelously rational as you.
    - PrimHelios 9y ago
      So build a post-racial world by building up racial barriers and continuing the "other"-ness of people with different skin colors? I'm not trying to be a dick or strawman you, that's the only thing I can get from this comment.
      - QAPereo 9y ago
        Build a post racial world by acknowledging that racial barriers exist independently of your thoughts, seek to weaken them and repair ongoing harm. The most powerful group playing pretend isn’t going to fix a damned thing. Trying to pretend that everything is better now... please explain how you see this working? Edit: Or just downvote and move on, that says something too.
        PrimHelios 9y ago
        >Edit: Or just downvote and move on, that says something too. I have 224 karma, I don't even have the ability to downvote [0]. I'm sorry I have shit I need to do and can't respond to you immediately. [0]: https://imgur.com/a/5YnaY https://imgur.com/a/5YnaY (ignore the hilarious typo in this) EDIT: Funny how you claim I'm downvoting you, then when I say I'm not, you downvote and flag me. That's beyond petty and childish.
        linkregister 9y ago
        Note about HN down voting: when replying to a post, the parent poster cannot down vote you. The down vote you were awarded came from another commenter. At this time, this comment has positive karma. At any rate, complaining about down voting distracts from your very good point.
        QAPereo 9y ago
        Fair enough, I’ll keep that in mind going forward. Thanks for taking the time to teach.
ethbro 9y ago
The problem is that juries without a minority on them absolutely find minorities guilty at a higher rate than when one or more minorities are on the jury. As the thread below noted, it's not fair to have historical conditions that produced winners (white men, countries with colonies, etc) and then make things more equal by saying "That's all over" and failing to recognize the results of previous injustice that are still embedded in our lives. I could have offered other suggestions. I specifically said 'juries that roughly reflect their communities in racial and sexual senses'. I don't feel that's an unreasonably burdensome ask in pursuit of Justice. http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1349%26context%3Dheinzworks&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjL4PX-0LLYAhVJ4YMKHSY-CWEQFggaMAU&usg=AOvVaw3Ys8e-4lDwIwwQo3nMflRF http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D13...

hodgesrm 9y ago

You might have difficulty empaneling juries if this were a requirement. What makes a good jury goes well beyond racial or sexual makeup. Also, in many places the jury pools don't match the community at large. This approach would therefore have the effect of jeopardizing the right to jury trial without really alleviating injustice. A more fruitful approach might be to try to make the pools more balanced. Getting more community participation in the justice system seems like a very good thing at multiple levels.

ethbro 9y ago
A right to a trial by a racially biased jury isn't much of a right in my opinion. I'm all for throwing people in jail if they don't want to serve on a jury.
curun1r 9y ago
I think we'd do better to, at least at first, start solving some of the reasons why our jury demographics are so skewed. Stronger protections for workers that need time off (there should be no work hardship exemption and employers should be forced to give jurors full pay for the duration of the trial) would be a good start to not discriminate against poorer people who can't take off from work without struggling financially or getting fired. Also, criminal convictions shouldn't disqualify someone after they've served their sentences. The current system disqualifies a disproportionate number of minorities and that leaves predominantly-white juries to convict even more minorities...a self-reinforcing cycle. Also, the SCotUS needs to recommit to the Batson doctrine to prevent prosecutors from dismissing minority jurors based on race.