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Millions fewer than died under centuries of global slavery and imperialism, which I'm sure you're not going to now claim is "not real capitalism".

by LV-426 9y ago

bsaul 9y ago
That’s a common misconception : Capitalism isn’t as ambitious as communism in that matter. It doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place, just more economicaly efficient one. Communism is not only an economical system, but it also aims at solving the unfairness that it attributes to capitalism, and then invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). For a capitalist, this vision is like blaming the engine for the direction the car is taking.
- LV-426 9y ago
  > Capitalism [...] doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place I didn't say it did. I pointed out that if you're going to insist that mass murder under a few decades of communist regimes = real communism, then mass murder (and genocide and slavery) under centuries of capitalist regimes = real capitalism. > Communism [...] invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). Communism did not invent revolution or dictatorship.
  - mitchty 9y ago
    Indeed, dictators originally had term limits even, so the idea of a temporary dictatorship is... pretty much its original intent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator
  - bsaul 9y ago
    Well, no you can’t make that equivalent reasoning , that’s my point. People blaming communism makes a lot more sense because it does deal with what the political regime should be (once again, a dictatorship). Who should be in charge, for what political goals, with which privilege, as well as provides all the intermediate steps on how to accomplish that goal. It is not of the same nature.
    - LV-426 9y ago
      > Well, no you can’t make that equivalent reasoning And yet I seem to have done it. > People blaming communism makes a lot more sense You're entitled to your opinion. > because it does deal with what the political regime should be (once again, a dictatorship). Since you persist in arguing about "dictatorship" instead of communism, I don't see any point in continuing this. Edit: instant downvoter I think you missed one of my posts; here's a link to make it easier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034997 Feel free to check out my comments page and obsessively downvote others you may have missed, if any.
      - bsaul 9y ago
        I don't understand the sentence "your persist in arguing about "dictatorship" instead of communism". Maybe i wasn't clear in what i meant by dictatorship, but i refer to the "dictatorship of proletariat" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletaria...) which is core to the communist doctrine. You'll probably argue that this kind of dictatorship isn't to be understood in the common sense, but judging by the various communists thinkers that refer gladly to violence, as well as its historical examples, i'd say the difference aren't that clear.
        LV-426 9y ago
        > "dictatorship of proletariat" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletaria...) You'll probably argue that this kind of dictatorship isn't to be understood in the common sense I don't have to. Your own link says so in just the second paragraph: Dictatorship of the proletariat is different from the popular notion of 'dictatorship'
observation 9y ago
It just doesn't ring true. Both slavery and imperialism have had a long history before capitalism. Capitalism exists in circumstances with no plausible relationship to slavery or imperialism. It annoys me because this dialectic is so obviously wrong.
- LV-426 9y ago
  And mass murder had a long history before communism. Are you even disagreeing with me?
- dang 9y ago
  We've asked you before not to use HN primarily to argue about ideology. Since you're still doing that, I've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Millions fewer than died under centuries of global slavery and imperialism, which I'm sure you're not going to now claim is "not real capitalism".

by LV-426 9y ago

Millions fewer than died under centuries of global slavery and imperialism, which I'm sure you're not going to now claim is "not real capitalism".

bsaul 9y ago

That’s a common misconception : Capitalism isn’t as ambitious as communism in that matter. It doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place, just more economicaly efficient one. Communism is not only an economical system, but it also aims at solving the unfairness that it attributes to capitalism, and then invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). For a capitalist, this vision is like blaming the engine for the direction the car is taking.

LV-426 9y ago
> Capitalism [...] doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place I didn't say it did. I pointed out that if you're going to insist that mass murder under a few decades of communist regimes = real communism, then mass murder (and genocide and slavery) under centuries of capitalist regimes = real capitalism. > Communism [...] invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). Communism did not invent revolution or dictatorship.
- mitchty 9y ago
  Indeed, dictators originally had term limits even, so the idea of a temporary dictatorship is... pretty much its original intent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator
- bsaul 9y ago
  Well, no you can’t make that equivalent reasoning , that’s my point. People blaming communism makes a lot more sense because it does deal with what the political regime should be (once again, a dictatorship). Who should be in charge, for what political goals, with which privilege, as well as provides all the intermediate steps on how to accomplish that goal. It is not of the same nature.
  - LV-426 9y ago
    > Well, no you can’t make that equivalent reasoning And yet I seem to have done it. > People blaming communism makes a lot more sense You're entitled to your opinion. > because it does deal with what the political regime should be (once again, a dictatorship). Since you persist in arguing about "dictatorship" instead of communism, I don't see any point in continuing this. Edit: instant downvoter I think you missed one of my posts; here's a link to make it easier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034997 Feel free to check out my comments page and obsessively downvote others you may have missed, if any.
    - bsaul 9y ago
      I don't understand the sentence "your persist in arguing about "dictatorship" instead of communism". Maybe i wasn't clear in what i meant by dictatorship, but i refer to the "dictatorship of proletariat" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletaria...) which is core to the communist doctrine. You'll probably argue that this kind of dictatorship isn't to be understood in the common sense, but judging by the various communists thinkers that refer gladly to violence, as well as its historical examples, i'd say the difference aren't that clear.
      - LV-426 9y ago
        > "dictatorship of proletariat" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletaria...) You'll probably argue that this kind of dictatorship isn't to be understood in the common sense I don't have to. Your own link says so in just the second paragraph: Dictatorship of the proletariat is different from the popular notion of 'dictatorship'

observation 9y ago

It just doesn't ring true. Both slavery and imperialism have had a long history before capitalism. Capitalism exists in circumstances with no plausible relationship to slavery or imperialism. It annoys me because this dialectic is so obviously wrong.

LV-426 9y ago
And mass murder had a long history before communism. Are you even disagreeing with me?
dang 9y ago
We've asked you before not to use HN primarily to argue about ideology. Since you're still doing that, I've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break the site guidelines with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html