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communism didn't really exist to fall in the first place Come on, we can do better here than the tired old “not real communism” argument. it just means that w
by gaius 9y ago
communism didn't really exist to fall in the first place
Come on, we can do better here than the tired old “not real communism” argument.
it just means that we didn't have the right data, or perhaps we need a new analysis
Ah yes, always followed by “it will be different next time”. How many millions more have to die?
- ahartmetz 9y agoI think it's fair to call all attempts so far "not reall communism". But you don't have to conclude "real communism would work". You can also conclude "real communism seems unimplementable". It is, after all, a social order that was created purely on paper and from theoretical arguments, which is ridiculous. That activity gives you something to try, but certainly not a fixed solution that you just need to implement as prescribed.
- Fnoord 9y agoIts a typical low blow, akin to throwing all right-wing under the guise of Franco, the Weimar republic, or some other right-wing system. Communism has been implemented on small scale. One notable example in Spain [1], problem is that any large political system eventually turns out to be either authoritarian or ineffective or sabotaged (I leave the guess by whom as an exercise to the reader). Its also been applied in part in West-Europe as well as USA, just not in full. Capitalism is a race to the bottom where the poor countries in the world are being put under the thumb. You don't have to look very far. Just look at all the CIA ops the USA has conducted in the 20th century, e.g. Allende. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#1936_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#1936_Revolu...
- tqdm 9y agoCapitalism is actually currently ending the world hunger because trickle-down effects actually exist. Living standards are rising globally incredibly quickly. Middle-class kids in Jordan are playing Diabolo 3 on their computers despite the region having almost no natural resources, almost no water and despite it being troubled by Syrian refugees. Yes, capitalism needs regulation, but it is a lie to say that the entire approach is doomed to be a race to the bottom.
- platz 9y agoThis is an experiment with 1 trial. What evidence do you have that another system with the same technological advances would not produce the same or better living standards? (none!)
- gaius 9y agoEast vs West Germany, North vs South Korea, even Cuba vs Florida. There have been plenty of experiments.
- fabianhjr 9y ago> Capitalism is actually currently ending the world hunger There are a ton of efforts, both from state-actors[1], NGOs[2] and individuals, seeking to eradicate extreme poverty worldwide. It is not apparent that it is "fixing itself with capitalism" or that any of the previous actors think it is going to happen. > trickle-down effects actually exist Citation Needed because trickle-down economics has been shown to increase inequality and not increase the quality of life for those in poverty. > Yes, capitalism needs regulation, but it is a lie to say that the entire approach is doomed to be a race to the bottom. Why is it a lie? [1]: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/development/data/oecd-international-development-statistics/oda-official-development-assistance-disbursements_data-00069-en http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/development/data/oecd-internati... [2]: https://data.oecd.org/drf/grants-by-private-agencies-and-ngos.htm https://data.oecd.org/drf/grants-by-private-agencies-and-ngo...
- observation 9y ago> ny large political system eventually turns out to be either authoritarian or ineffective Your thoughts on seasteading, even as a hypothetical?
- platz 9y agoThe original intention was the communist revolution would take over the whole world at once. it was never intended/feasible to be a sole communist nation surrounded by a sea of capitalist nations, but they couldn't admit that failure and pressed on anyway.
- gaius 9y agoThe original intention was the communist revolution would take over the whole world at once This in and of itself speaks volumes. If it were truly a viable system it could start in one country which would quickly outstrip all others in technology, culture, industrial production, quality of life for its citizens... Then all other countries would gladly follow. But they knew from the very beginning that people who could vote with their feet, would flee that system. Countries that restrict people from leaving know perfectly well that they are doing something evil.
- platz 9y agoWell, your 'restriction' motivation is a bit conspiracy theory / disingenuous, but yes for many reasons communism at the level of nations doesn't work. Do we really need to re-hash that the leninists' revolution model was flawed over and over again? There is no disagreement here. Instead, following your startup idea, we should foster worker co-ops, which already exist today and are compatible within existing nations. One example is the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
- kpdxxx 9y agoHackernews again at it with the hottest takes. How many millions more have to die in the name of capitalism?
- LV-426 9y agoMillions fewer than died under centuries of global slavery and imperialism, which I'm sure you're not going to now claim is "not real capitalism".
- bsaul 9y agoThat’s a common misconception : Capitalism isn’t as ambitious as communism in that matter. It doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place, just more economicaly efficient one. Communism is not only an economical system, but it also aims at solving the unfairness that it attributes to capitalism, and then invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). For a capitalist, this vision is like blaming the engine for the direction the car is taking.
- LV-426 9y ago> Capitalism [...] doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place I didn't say it did. I pointed out that if you're going to insist that mass murder under a few decades of communist regimes = real communism, then mass murder (and genocide and slavery) under centuries of capitalist regimes = real capitalism. > Communism [...] invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). Communism did not invent revolution or dictatorship.
- mitchty 9y agoIndeed, dictators originally had term limits even, so the idea of a temporary dictatorship is... pretty much its original intent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator
- bsaul 9y agoWell, no you can’t make that equivalent reasoning , that’s my point. People blaming communism makes a lot more sense because it does deal with what the political regime should be (once again, a dictatorship). Who should be in charge, for what political goals, with which privilege, as well as provides all the intermediate steps on how to accomplish that goal. It is not of the same nature.
- golergka 9y agoReal communism was tried and worked – in communities under 100-200 people (like kibutzim). This feeling of community, where people truly care about one another, is detrimental for communism to work – and turns out, millions of people can be shaped into something similar only under a terror and propaganda machine. Free people will never care about millions of their "comrades" the same way the can care about their 100-200 closest social connections.
- smichel17 9y agoI think you meant to s/detrimental/fundamental/
- legulere 9y agoIt is an old argument because communism can mean different things. What you mean with communism I would rather call more precisely real socialism [1] Now those real socialist states had as their goal, or at least said so to achieve communism: "the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state" [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism You could also ask: How many millions more have to die before we overcome capitalism?
- geezerjay 9y ago> It is an old argument because communism can mean different things. Actually, it has a very concrete definition. The only thing that's flexible is where will communists move the goalpost when another downside or systemic problem is pointed out.
- 0x445442 9y agoOne can also state, WRT the US, that "real" capitalism hasn't existed and its closest approximation has been in steady decline for the last 125 years. Ergo, if we only tried "real" capitalism things would be so much better.
- legulere 9y agoIt does not work the other way around, as capitalism as a term was coined by socialists and communists to describe the then status quo.