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> and now that that's gone with the fall of communism there's just doom. The thing is, communism didn't really exist to fall in the first place, and the most a
by fao_ 9y ago
> and now that that's gone with the fall of communism there's just doom.
The thing is, communism didn't really exist to fall in the first place, and the most advanced countries (Sweden, Norway, etc.) are all putting in place a mixed socialist/capitalist system.
Also, dialectical materialism didn't necessarily fail just because a set of predictions were made with it didn't come true, it just means that we didn't have the right data, or perhaps we need a new analysis. Not to mention the fact that much of communist writing with regards to capitalist failure is extremely "on point", even today. Indeed, much of it feels like it could have been written yesterday. Dialectical materialism remains a tool of science, however limited it may be, and so should be considered as one.
Also, I think you're mistaking "doom" for "actionable movements". People are actually mobilizing to fix the problem of race (mostly within America, I might add -- while racism is a problem elsewhere, you don't tend to see as much violent resistance to fixing it as you do in the American systems). Just like people are mobilizing to fix Climate Change and much of the problems with uncontrolled late-stage capitalism.
- digi_owl 9y ago> and the most advanced countries (Sweden, Norway, etc.) are all putting in place a mixed socialist/capitalist system. Living in one of them it all to often feels like they are rolling back that system.
- gaius 9y agocommunism didn't really exist to fall in the first place Come on, we can do better here than the tired old “not real communism” argument. it just means that we didn't have the right data, or perhaps we need a new analysis Ah yes, always followed by “it will be different next time”. How many millions more have to die?
- ahartmetz 9y agoI think it's fair to call all attempts so far "not reall communism". But you don't have to conclude "real communism would work". You can also conclude "real communism seems unimplementable". It is, after all, a social order that was created purely on paper and from theoretical arguments, which is ridiculous. That activity gives you something to try, but certainly not a fixed solution that you just need to implement as prescribed.
- Fnoord 9y agoIts a typical low blow, akin to throwing all right-wing under the guise of Franco, the Weimar republic, or some other right-wing system. Communism has been implemented on small scale. One notable example in Spain [1], problem is that any large political system eventually turns out to be either authoritarian or ineffective or sabotaged (I leave the guess by whom as an exercise to the reader). Its also been applied in part in West-Europe as well as USA, just not in full. Capitalism is a race to the bottom where the poor countries in the world are being put under the thumb. You don't have to look very far. Just look at all the CIA ops the USA has conducted in the 20th century, e.g. Allende. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#1936_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_in_Spain#1936_Revolu...
- tqdm 9y agoCapitalism is actually currently ending the world hunger because trickle-down effects actually exist. Living standards are rising globally incredibly quickly. Middle-class kids in Jordan are playing Diabolo 3 on their computers despite the region having almost no natural resources, almost no water and despite it being troubled by Syrian refugees. Yes, capitalism needs regulation, but it is a lie to say that the entire approach is doomed to be a race to the bottom.
- platz 9y agoThis is an experiment with 1 trial. What evidence do you have that another system with the same technological advances would not produce the same or better living standards? (none!)
- kpdxxx 9y agoHackernews again at it with the hottest takes. How many millions more have to die in the name of capitalism?
- LV-426 9y agoMillions fewer than died under centuries of global slavery and imperialism, which I'm sure you're not going to now claim is "not real capitalism".
- bsaul 9y agoThat’s a common misconception : Capitalism isn’t as ambitious as communism in that matter. It doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place, just more economicaly efficient one. Communism is not only an economical system, but it also aims at solving the unfairness that it attributes to capitalism, and then invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). For a capitalist, this vision is like blaming the engine for the direction the car is taking.
- LV-426 9y ago> Capitalism [...] doesn’t aim at making the world a just or better place I didn't say it did. I pointed out that if you're going to insist that mass murder under a few decades of communist regimes = real communism, then mass murder (and genocide and slavery) under centuries of capitalist regimes = real capitalism. > Communism [...] invents all kinds of counter measure ( one of them being the revolution, and « temporary » dictactorship). Communism did not invent revolution or dictatorship.
- mitchty 9y agoIndeed, dictators originally had term limits even, so the idea of a temporary dictatorship is... pretty much its original intent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dictator
- bsaul 9y agoWell, no you can’t make that equivalent reasoning , that’s my point. People blaming communism makes a lot more sense because it does deal with what the political regime should be (once again, a dictatorship). Who should be in charge, for what political goals, with which privilege, as well as provides all the intermediate steps on how to accomplish that goal. It is not of the same nature.
- golergka 9y agoReal communism was tried and worked – in communities under 100-200 people (like kibutzim). This feeling of community, where people truly care about one another, is detrimental for communism to work – and turns out, millions of people can be shaped into something similar only under a terror and propaganda machine. Free people will never care about millions of their "comrades" the same way the can care about their 100-200 closest social connections.
- smichel17 9y agoI think you meant to s/detrimental/fundamental/
- legulere 9y agoIt is an old argument because communism can mean different things. What you mean with communism I would rather call more precisely real socialism [1] Now those real socialist states had as their goal, or at least said so to achieve communism: "the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state" [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_socialism [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism You could also ask: How many millions more have to die before we overcome capitalism?
- geezerjay 9y ago> It is an old argument because communism can mean different things. Actually, it has a very concrete definition. The only thing that's flexible is where will communists move the goalpost when another downside or systemic problem is pointed out.
- 0x445442 9y agoOne can also state, WRT the US, that "real" capitalism hasn't existed and its closest approximation has been in steady decline for the last 125 years. Ergo, if we only tried "real" capitalism things would be so much better.
- legulere 9y agoIt does not work the other way around, as capitalism as a term was coined by socialists and communists to describe the then status quo.
- BjoernKW 9y ago> The thing is, communism didn't really exist to fall in the first place Not a true Scotsman, eh? The same argument can be applied to the current capitalist system, too. Some libertarians in fact do so when saying that the problems we see with capitalism don't actually arise from free markets but from precisely the state intervention in those markets that's supposedly meant to alleviate these problems. > and the most advanced countries (Sweden, Norway, etc.) are all putting in place a mixed socialist/capitalist system. It's called social democracy or social market economy. It's still largely a free market capitalist system because the means of production for the most part are privately owned. > Not to mention the fact that much of communist writing with regards to capitalist failure is extremely "on point", even today. Like many people being lifted out of poverty in the last decades? Like the average person having a much easier life than the average person just a hundred years ago? That's not to say there are no problems in a free market system at all but it's not all doom and gloom. Quite to the contrary, free markets overall have been tremendously beneficial to the development of mankind.
- fallingfrog 9y agoThere is no such thing as pure capitalism either, because private property cannot exist without all the elaborate state machinery that libertarians love to hate: a court system, contract law, a police force, an army, and the taxes to support it. All this stuff exists to create the illusion of such a thing as pure private property. Neither pure communism or pure capitalism are things that could exist in the real world.
- perl4ever 9y agoRejecting "a court system, contract law, a police force, an army" sounds like an anarchist's point of view, and while libertarian anarchists (or anarcho-capitalists) exist, equating them with libertarians in general approaches the limit of how ignorant I can believe a non-troll to be.
- fallingfrog 9y agoWell, I've heard self proclaimed libertarians say things like "taxation is theft of private property". So that's what I'm basing that on.
- dang 9y agoPlease don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents, regardless of ideology. They're reliably some of the most low-quality threads we see—partly because they're all the same and partly because they trigger everyone's reflexes rather than their curiosity. They are definitely not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html