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>Wrong, he thought that capitalism would be replaced by socialism, which would itself transition over time to communism. You are correct that Marx predicted a

>Wrong, he thought that capitalism would be replaced by socialism, which would itself transition over time to communism. You are correct that Marx predicted a brief transition period between capitalism and true communism, which of course is not what ever happened. >Marx’s socialism is not a utopian state. But his communism is supposed to be a utopia, which is what I said. Let me add that the vocabulary is not consistent here. Sometimes leftists refer to communism as a form of socialism, sometimes they are spoken of as two different systems. >No, non-Leninist Leftists say none of this is relevant to non-Leninist communism and the broader non-Leninist Left, because all these systems were Leninist vanguardism, and non-Leninists on the Left reject vanguardism and generally also the Leninist deviation from classical Marxism in bypassing capitalist democracy as a necessary part of the path. True, but non-Leninist communists have never come to power in a state, and as far as I can tell there is no particular reason to think they ever will. And even if they somehow did, there still remains the question of how good a society they would actually produce. Leftists have attained power (ie Labour in the UK), but have not done so well over the long term. By the way, what are you? A non-Leninist communist or a non-Leninist socialist or what? Also, I am going into this because when leftists say "but that wasn't true communism" they seem to be implying that it could have been if the leaders had done things right. However, when you look at the circumstances in Russia/USSR, it simply was not possible, much less for any of the other communist countries. More generally, I went into this whole history because I think everyone should know it, but very few do. Do you agree?

dragonwriter 9y ago
> You are correct that Marx predicted a brief transition period between capitalism and true communism No, he didn't predict (at least, not in any of his public works) that the socialism phase would be brief. > which of course is not what ever happened. But, then, even if that was Marx’s prediction of what would occur if his program were adopted, Marx’s programs has never been applied, only Lenin’s which, despite claiming ideological continuity with Marx, applied to different starting conditions and employs different methodologies. > But his communism is supposed to be a utopia, which is what I said. What you said was he predicted a rapid and direct transition from the capitalist condition to a communist utopia; both the rapid and direct parts are false. > Let me add that the vocabulary is not consistent here. Sometimes leftists refer to communism as a form of socialism, sometimes they are spoken of as two different systems. There are different definitions of “communism” and “socialism” that apply in different contexts, but they are pretty consistently used. There is the definition of ideologies, in which communism is a specific form of socialism, and there is the definition of politico-economic systems within the Marxist theory, in which socialism and communism are different systems.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  >No, he didn't predict (at least, not in any of his public works) that the socialism phase would be brief. That's interesting. I had always read it would be brief, but I am not an expert on Marxism, so I am going to assume you are right. So let me ask, how is Marx defining socialism (I am guessing he meant there was still a state), and what did he think needed to happen to move from socialism to communism? >even if that was Marx’s prediction of what would occur if his program were adopted Huh? Everything I have ever read about Marxism indicates that communism was supposed to be a utopia. What did Marx say that indicated that it might not be one, and in what specific ways? Also, let me ask again, what is your political philosophy? Are you a non-Leninist communist or a non-communist socialist or what? And do you agree that it would be good if everyone knew the history of Marxism, and that at present very few people do?

dragonwriter 9y ago

> You are correct that Marx predicted a brief transition period between capitalism and true communism No, he didn't predict (at least, not in any of his public works) that the socialism phase would be brief. > which of course is not what ever happened. But, then, even if that was Marx’s prediction of what would occur if his program were adopted, Marx’s programs has never been applied, only Lenin’s which, despite claiming ideological continuity with Marx, applied to different starting conditions and employs different methodologies. > But his communism is supposed to be a utopia, which is what I said. What you said was he predicted a rapid and direct transition from the capitalist condition to a communist utopia; both the rapid and direct parts are false. > Let me add that the vocabulary is not consistent here. Sometimes leftists refer to communism as a form of socialism, sometimes they are spoken of as two different systems. There are different definitions of “communism” and “socialism” that apply in different contexts, but they are pretty consistently used. There is the definition of ideologies, in which communism is a specific form of socialism, and there is the definition of politico-economic systems within the Marxist theory, in which socialism and communism are different systems.

woodandsteel 9y ago
>No, he didn't predict (at least, not in any of his public works) that the socialism phase would be brief. That's interesting. I had always read it would be brief, but I am not an expert on Marxism, so I am going to assume you are right. So let me ask, how is Marx defining socialism (I am guessing he meant there was still a state), and what did he think needed to happen to move from socialism to communism? >even if that was Marx’s prediction of what would occur if his program were adopted Huh? Everything I have ever read about Marxism indicates that communism was supposed to be a utopia. What did Marx say that indicated that it might not be one, and in what specific ways? Also, let me ask again, what is your political philosophy? Are you a non-Leninist communist or a non-communist socialist or what? And do you agree that it would be good if everyone knew the history of Marxism, and that at present very few people do?