5 ms·

Thing is police are people too and afraid to get shot/die. Unless you can remove the guns from criminals, the cops will need guns.

topmonk 9y ago
Yea, that's what I mean by "remove guns from the equation", ie. repeal the second amendment.
- weberc2 9y ago
  I'm just the messenger here, but the canned counter argument is that criminals don't obey gun laws and won't be much deterred by an arms ban.
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
    This is the worst argument against anything, because it only logically follows that criminals won't care about ANY laws and therefore everything should be legal. It doesn't matter whether they care about the law or not, it's about making it harder for them to get a gun regardless, and being able to confiscate them if we catch them. It worked in Australia.
    - Turing_Machine 9y ago
      "It worked in Australia." And it didn't work in Mexico, Honduras, or Nicaragua, all of which have more in common with the United States than Australia does, and all of which have a) strict gun control laws and b) breathtakingly high murder rates.
      - yongjik 9y ago
        > And it didn't work in Mexico, Honduras, or Nicaragua, all of which have more in common with the United States than Australia does ... ...The things some people say to justify guns...
      - BigJono 9y ago
        Yes but are those murders by members of crime organisations or by some random that had a mental breakdown and easy access to his or a family member's gun?
        icelancer 9y ago
        Most of those murders in the US fall under the former category, too.
      - ascorbic 9y ago
        You really think that the US has more in common with countries where gangsters murder with impunity, and paramilitary police death squads conduct extrajudicial killings?
      - pjc50 9y ago
        Interesting admission that the US is more like a third world country there.
  - topmonk 9y ago
    Yet it seems to work in other western countries. In 2015: Killings by officers in US: 1140 Killings by officers in England: 3 Deaths of police by shootings in US: 41 Deaths of police by shootings in England: 0 (about 1 every other year) Population of England: 54 million Population of USA: 325 million England has 7% of the deaths per capita compared to the USA. I couldn't find data on Germany, but I suspect it's similar. In general, I think the idea of having people being able to defend themselves against the government is a good idea, and people having the right to have guns was a way to achieve that. But with the amount of power the government has nowadays, I don't think it's a justification anymore. References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2015 https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...
    - blattimwind 9y ago
      > data on Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... Overall, in Central Europe the differences in fatal police action per capita is essentially noise.
      - ryanlol 9y ago
        Well, apparently they still do summary executions in Germany: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/polizist-erschiesst-mann-ein-toedlicher-schuss-und-viele-offene-fragen-1.2066352 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/polizist-erschiesst-mann-e... https://www.innsalzach24.de/innsalzach/region-burghausen/burghausen-ort481637/todesschuesse-burghausen-sich-staatsanwaltschaft-entschieden-5913453.html https://www.innsalzach24.de/innsalzach/region-burghausen/bur... Don't run away from German cops, they can legally shoot you!
  - chrischen 9y ago
    They can be deterred by an arms ban, just like how it's almost impossible to buy a kinder egg with toy inside the US. See China, Japan, and countless other gun-free societies. However gun culture and the prevalence of gun manufacturers in the US may make it practically impossible in the near term, but it definitely is possible.
johndunne 9y ago
I think it's only fair for law abiding citizens to expect to survive an encounter with the police. If a police officer is going to bring a gun to a situation where one is not needed, then the onus should be on them to accept more risk of death than is expected of a law-abiding citizen. Generally speaking, they're paid to do a job, and that job unfortunately currently involves the risk of death in the line of duty. That risk cannot be reduced at the expense of innocent people dying needlessly 'just because' an office might be shot. There are many jobs a person can do if they're not up to the dangerous environment some police depts have to work in.
- BigJono 9y ago
  In what situations are guns not needed though? I wouldn't even dream of doing anything other than manning a booze bus in a place where people are allowed to legally carry guns if I didn't have my own one. It doesn't seem like the choice for most American cities is between armed cops and unarmed cops. It's between armed cops and no cops. Why would anyone sign up and expose themselves to that level of risk?

topmonk 9y ago

Yea, that's what I mean by "remove guns from the equation", ie. repeal the second amendment.

weberc2 9y ago
I'm just the messenger here, but the canned counter argument is that criminals don't obey gun laws and won't be much deterred by an arms ban.
- ClassyJacket 9y ago
  This is the worst argument against anything, because it only logically follows that criminals won't care about ANY laws and therefore everything should be legal. It doesn't matter whether they care about the law or not, it's about making it harder for them to get a gun regardless, and being able to confiscate them if we catch them. It worked in Australia.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    "It worked in Australia." And it didn't work in Mexico, Honduras, or Nicaragua, all of which have more in common with the United States than Australia does, and all of which have a) strict gun control laws and b) breathtakingly high murder rates.
    - yongjik 9y ago
      > And it didn't work in Mexico, Honduras, or Nicaragua, all of which have more in common with the United States than Australia does ... ...The things some people say to justify guns...
    - BigJono 9y ago
      Yes but are those murders by members of crime organisations or by some random that had a mental breakdown and easy access to his or a family member's gun?
      - icelancer 9y ago
        Most of those murders in the US fall under the former category, too.
    - ascorbic 9y ago
      You really think that the US has more in common with countries where gangsters murder with impunity, and paramilitary police death squads conduct extrajudicial killings?
    - pjc50 9y ago
      Interesting admission that the US is more like a third world country there.
- topmonk 9y ago
  Yet it seems to work in other western countries. In 2015: Killings by officers in US: 1140 Killings by officers in England: 3 Deaths of police by shootings in US: 41 Deaths of police by shootings in England: 0 (about 1 every other year) Population of England: 54 million Population of USA: 325 million England has 7% of the deaths per capita compared to the USA. I couldn't find data on Germany, but I suspect it's similar. In general, I think the idea of having people being able to defend themselves against the government is a good idea, and people having the right to have guns was a way to achieve that. But with the amount of power the government has nowadays, I don't think it's a justification anymore. References: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2015 https://www.odmp.org/search/year?year=2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officers_killed_in_the_line_of_duty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_police_officer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc...
  - blattimwind 9y ago
    > data on Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country#... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... Overall, in Central Europe the differences in fatal police action per capita is essentially noise.
    - ryanlol 9y ago
      Well, apparently they still do summary executions in Germany: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/polizist-erschiesst-mann-ein-toedlicher-schuss-und-viele-offene-fragen-1.2066352 http://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/polizist-erschiesst-mann-e... https://www.innsalzach24.de/innsalzach/region-burghausen/burghausen-ort481637/todesschuesse-burghausen-sich-staatsanwaltschaft-entschieden-5913453.html https://www.innsalzach24.de/innsalzach/region-burghausen/bur... Don't run away from German cops, they can legally shoot you!
- chrischen 9y ago
  They can be deterred by an arms ban, just like how it's almost impossible to buy a kinder egg with toy inside the US. See China, Japan, and countless other gun-free societies. However gun culture and the prevalence of gun manufacturers in the US may make it practically impossible in the near term, but it definitely is possible.

johndunne 9y ago

I think it's only fair for law abiding citizens to expect to survive an encounter with the police. If a police officer is going to bring a gun to a situation where one is not needed, then the onus should be on them to accept more risk of death than is expected of a law-abiding citizen. Generally speaking, they're paid to do a job, and that job unfortunately currently involves the risk of death in the line of duty. That risk cannot be reduced at the expense of innocent people dying needlessly 'just because' an office might be shot. There are many jobs a person can do if they're not up to the dangerous environment some police depts have to work in.

BigJono 9y ago
In what situations are guns not needed though? I wouldn't even dream of doing anything other than manning a booze bus in a place where people are allowed to legally carry guns if I didn't have my own one. It doesn't seem like the choice for most American cities is between armed cops and unarmed cops. It's between armed cops and no cops. Why would anyone sign up and expose themselves to that level of risk?