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This is not (only) about being green. Electric cars are a pleasure to drive, they are less costly to maintain and repair (far less moving pieces), they are chea

This is not (only) about being green. Electric cars are a pleasure to drive, they are less costly to maintain and repair (far less moving pieces), they are cheaper to run (at least in Europe, don't know in the US), and you can charge them at home (this is more of an advantage in the US than in Europe). Even the most anti-green buyers will prefer electric vehicles in ~10 years (if no sooner)

geerlingguy 9y ago
After test driving a Tesla, and seeing how much better the simple driving experience will be in a decent electric car (one pedal driving, heating and cooling divorced from a running and wasteful/toxic engine, a car that gets software updates for more than 6 months...), I don’t think I can ever consider buying another ICE. If I still commuted, I’d find some way to justify a Bolt, Leaf, or Model 3.
- funnelsgun 9y ago
  Lithium ion batteries are both toxic in production and disposal.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    The first version of your post said that lithium ion batteries were toxic in production and disposal (both claims entirely false). You've now changed the entire comment to CO2 output for battery production (even though battery production will continue to decline in CO2 impact as grid energy sources continue to tilt towards renewables). > Therefore, the study has calculated that a fossil fuel vehicle can currently drive for more than eight years before it reaches the same environmental impact of a Tesla. For the Nissan Leaf, with its smaller capacity battery, this figure comes in at three years. Both Teslas and Leafs will be on the road beyond the eight and three years you quoted, putting their production at a net positive even before the above mentioned improvements take place.
    - funnelsgun 9y ago
      Apologies, I thought I’d edit a useless, incorrect comment into something useful and contributive to the discussion. It wasn’t an act of manipulation or deception. I have restored the original comment.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        I’ve removed the offending sentence from my comment as well regarding intent. My apologies for not assuming positive intent.
      - grzm 9y ago
        If you do that, it's common on HN to include a note regarding how you changed it, particularly if the edit is substantive.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
eddieh 9y ago
What? I had a 2002 RAV4 I just sold, I never spent anything significant on maintenance. Besides tires and a single battery replacement, I spent nearly zero. I neglected most oil changes—probably got a total of 4 since 2002. Never got a tuneup, never changed the breaks...hell I think I washed it two times total. The mechanic that inspected it before the sale said it was in great condition and would run forever. You are severely underestimating the cost of replacing the batteries for an electric car. Batteries are still the most expensive part of electronic cars—and are a consumable.
- pnw_hazor 9y ago
  Our 1998 Camry is going strong. ~24mpg And, last year we bought a new ICE Civic for $22k it averages 33mpg according to its computer. I have friend who bought a Leaf in Seattle. She was always jonesing for a charge because her apartment didn't have access to power in the parking lot. Nor did her workplace. Not sure what she was thinking.
  - eddieh 9y ago
    Haha...hopefully she lives in Seattle proper and gets electricity from Seattle City Light which is almost all hydro. If she lives in the grater metropolitan area and is on Puget Sound Energy, her Leaf is mostly coal powered.
- jsz0 9y ago
  Out of curiosity did you do regular oil changes for the first 40-60k miles? In my experience once the engine is broken in there's little harm in changing oil only as needed. I've gone 60k between oil changes before. As long as the oil in the engine isn't filthy I just top it to meet levels. Never had any problems.
  - eddieh 9y ago
    I didn't, I did feel guilty about it, well until the mechanic said it was in great condition. I mean maybe when I first bought it I did a few I don't remember...but I seriously can't recall specifics about more that four times—two of which were when my mom was visiting an saw I was like 20k past the window decal from the last oil change.
nihonde 9y ago
I agree, but there is a very sizable constituency in the US that will only relinquish their ICE over their dead body. In fact, that was pretty much the mainstream sentiment, nurtured no doubt by oil interests and a kind of nostalgia for America’s glory days that seems thankfully to be giving way to a hope for new glory days under the banner of Tesla. From Toyota’s perspective, the nationalist undercurrent must be a concern. Interesting then that Toyota is, I believe, still in the top ten most “American” automakers, based on domestic assembly. Honda is even higher on that list, last I checked.

geerlingguy 9y ago

After test driving a Tesla, and seeing how much better the simple driving experience will be in a decent electric car (one pedal driving, heating and cooling divorced from a running and wasteful/toxic engine, a car that gets software updates for more than 6 months...), I don’t think I can ever consider buying another ICE. If I still commuted, I’d find some way to justify a Bolt, Leaf, or Model 3.

funnelsgun 9y ago
Lithium ion batteries are both toxic in production and disposal.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  The first version of your post said that lithium ion batteries were toxic in production and disposal (both claims entirely false). You've now changed the entire comment to CO2 output for battery production (even though battery production will continue to decline in CO2 impact as grid energy sources continue to tilt towards renewables). > Therefore, the study has calculated that a fossil fuel vehicle can currently drive for more than eight years before it reaches the same environmental impact of a Tesla. For the Nissan Leaf, with its smaller capacity battery, this figure comes in at three years. Both Teslas and Leafs will be on the road beyond the eight and three years you quoted, putting their production at a net positive even before the above mentioned improvements take place.
  - funnelsgun 9y ago
    Apologies, I thought I’d edit a useless, incorrect comment into something useful and contributive to the discussion. It wasn’t an act of manipulation or deception. I have restored the original comment.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      I’ve removed the offending sentence from my comment as well regarding intent. My apologies for not assuming positive intent.
    - grzm 9y ago
      If you do that, it's common on HN to include a note regarding how you changed it, particularly if the edit is substantive.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

eddieh 9y ago

What? I had a 2002 RAV4 I just sold, I never spent anything significant on maintenance. Besides tires and a single battery replacement, I spent nearly zero. I neglected most oil changes—probably got a total of 4 since 2002. Never got a tuneup, never changed the breaks...hell I think I washed it two times total. The mechanic that inspected it before the sale said it was in great condition and would run forever. You are severely underestimating the cost of replacing the batteries for an electric car. Batteries are still the most expensive part of electronic cars—and are a consumable.

pnw_hazor 9y ago
Our 1998 Camry is going strong. ~24mpg And, last year we bought a new ICE Civic for $22k it averages 33mpg according to its computer. I have friend who bought a Leaf in Seattle. She was always jonesing for a charge because her apartment didn't have access to power in the parking lot. Nor did her workplace. Not sure what she was thinking.
- eddieh 9y ago
  Haha...hopefully she lives in Seattle proper and gets electricity from Seattle City Light which is almost all hydro. If she lives in the grater metropolitan area and is on Puget Sound Energy, her Leaf is mostly coal powered.
jsz0 9y ago
Out of curiosity did you do regular oil changes for the first 40-60k miles? In my experience once the engine is broken in there's little harm in changing oil only as needed. I've gone 60k between oil changes before. As long as the oil in the engine isn't filthy I just top it to meet levels. Never had any problems.
- eddieh 9y ago
  I didn't, I did feel guilty about it, well until the mechanic said it was in great condition. I mean maybe when I first bought it I did a few I don't remember...but I seriously can't recall specifics about more that four times—two of which were when my mom was visiting an saw I was like 20k past the window decal from the last oil change.

nihonde 9y ago

I agree, but there is a very sizable constituency in the US that will only relinquish their ICE over their dead body. In fact, that was pretty much the mainstream sentiment, nurtured no doubt by oil interests and a kind of nostalgia for America’s glory days that seems thankfully to be giving way to a hope for new glory days under the banner of Tesla. From Toyota’s perspective, the nationalist undercurrent must be a concern. Interesting then that Toyota is, I believe, still in the top ten most “American” automakers, based on domestic assembly. Honda is even higher on that list, last I checked.