3 ms·

I don't know...I see a silver line here. There are many situations where putting everything on the table might make the situation worse. Something like a negati

by chimen 9y ago

I don't know...I see a silver line here. There are many situations where putting everything on the table might make the situation worse. Something like a negative placebo effect can occur here and, for patients that may still have a battle in them, the depression and fear resulted from knowing too many things might worsen things. My father died 8 years ago and I remember that we all knew he had just a few weeks left in him. We didn't tell him and no doctor did either. He was still talking about how he can't wait to go fishing once he gets out of there. I think it was something nice to keep him from diving down in panic attacks and depression as I imagine I would knowing that my situation is that bad. I'm not so brave and I don't know if I would like someone to tell if I'm about to die soon...maybe I would; this is hard to discuss from outside.

Robotbeat 9y ago
Panic attacks and depression are what we often imagine being told we'll die will do to us, but I've heard anecdotes that suggest the opposite: a sense of peaceful resignation and acceptance.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  This is one of the reasons so many people in execution videos seem resigned to their fate; because they are. Just listen to stories people tell about narrowly escaping these kinds of deaths. Many of them talk about how they knew what was coming and had come to terms with it.
  - chimen 9y ago
    You are surely referring to the last moments of their lives and not the journey from finding out they're going to die until that moment you are talking about. There's a lot of adrenaline and other chemicals being released in such situations. I had a friend pass out 1 second before hitting a pillar with the car (her boyfriend had to pull the wheel and crash into a dog house). The brain finds ways to protect you from pain and it often shuts down in such cases when there's no room to contemplate. I think the subconscious kicks in/takes over. I was talking about the long wait many have to go through from finding out...to their final breath. From denial to acceptance might be a long road that scares me and I'm not sure if every bit of information can be beneficial or detrimental.
    - Robotbeat 9y ago
      You should watch this video of an EMP's decision to start telling people the truth (i.e. that they're dying): https://www.ted.com/talks/matthew_o_reilly_am_i_dying_the_honest_answer https://www.ted.com/talks/matthew_o_reilly_am_i_dying_the_ho...
    - fapjacks 9y ago
      I have personally been in a few of these moments in my life, when I was thought that I would be killed. I have never been a hostage on my way to my own execution, but I have narrowly escaped death in combat a few times when I thought beforehand that surely I would not make it. There is a lot of adrenaline, and the human mind definitely employs some tricks to shield us from realizing our own fate, or at least to stop us from applying much critical thinking about the situation. Being so close to death is a very base, very visceral, animal thing. Incidentally, this is closely related to one of the reasons I grew to feel at peace while fighting and at war -- and the chief reason I have such a hard time with civilian life afterwards -- and in a way, I came to enjoy it (I waited a couple of days to post this comment because the reality of it will shock the conscience of many, but I wanted to be honest). Not of course the moments where things are going quite badly, but the more base existence. That feeling is totally unique, of being there on the edge of life where everything is so simple, and where nothing else matters, or nothing else seems to matter very much. From talking to people and hearing stories, I suppose most people think of family when they're close to death. I didn't so much think about family as much as I had kind of very simple and straightforward "aw-shucks" moments of regret about not doing the things I wanted to do in life before I got into those situations where thought I would be killed. Incidentally, after my tours, I traveled a lot in order to settle those regrets and ended up meeting a woman that became my wife. I also created some very deep and meaningful friendships. I'm kind of getting off track here, but my original point was that what you've said is true, but at least for my part, "the long wait" is only happening after the fact. Navigating through the civilian world has been a really tough experience after all that, specifically those times where I thought surely I was a dead man. That was something I didn't expect, "the long wait" coming after everything else.
deanCommie 9y ago
I fully agree. I already have enough anxiety about my own inevitable mortality. If I was in that position, I would not want to know. I'd want to think about getting better, and I'd want to appreciate the time I had with my friends and loved ones without an omnipresent feeling of impending demise.
quakenul 9y ago
Preamble: I assume that you are okay with critically discussing your comment. If you don't, please just stop reading here :) This is the issue that has been described in the topmost comment, isn't it? Talking about ones own ongoing dieing process might be the hardest thing to ever do but by not talking about it a person is set to die alone. We can make assumptions about how a particular person feels about that and whether it benefits them (or us) but it is very unlikely the person is entirely oblivious to what's going on. There is going to be despair and sleepless nights and we could help with that. How could this be the one thing on earth that talking intimately about doesn't provide comfort? By the way I am a fucking coward and this is mostly me thinking out loud.
loopbit 9y ago
I've written and deleted this comment several times, I'm just not sure how to say all i want to say and I don't want to come across as arrogant or melodramatic but I disagree and I think that you underestimate your own capacity to adapt. Let's see if I can explain myself: I was diagnosed with leukaemia three years ago and now I'm on the last weeks of the treatment, for the moment (and waiting for the last bone marrow tests), it looks like the treatment has worked (although there's a decent chance of cancer coming back in the next few years). Speaking for myself, one of the things that frustrates me is the reluctance from doctors to give a straight answer. I had to ask several times to get a decent idea of the worst case scenario[0]. For me, having a clear vision helped me frame all the other possible scenarios, from the best possible "cancer is gone forever" to the more probable "treatment will work but in 10-15 years I'll develop another cancer" as well as lining up the available treatments[1]. I don't consider myself specially brave, but I prefer to know the truth, no matter how painful it is. Most of the cancer patients I know think along the same lines (some really brave people there). I accept that some people might not handle the situation well[2], but based on my limited observations, there may be less than you seem to think. To finish this, I don't know about your father's situation (I'm sorry for your loss, btw) and I might be completely wrong on this (and I apologize if this offends you, it's definitely not my intention), but I'd consider the idea that your father knew and that at least part of his talk about going fishing was his way of trying to cheer you up and protecting you. I know I've done that with my own family. --- [0] The question was "Assuming the treatment doesn't work, what can I expect?". The most direct answer I got (after all the evasives) was "It will be painless", which is code for "We will pump you full of morphine". [1] If the leukaemia is not completely gone or it returns I still have the option of a bone marrow transplant (although it will probably destroy my liver and will need a liver transplant too), I could also go for immunotherapy, which has shown very good results with my type of leukaemia but, as far as I know, only one hospital in Europe has the equipment necessary to do it. Worst case... well, we'll see, but even then I have 2-3 options that don't involve being a husk full of morphine until the lack of oxygen in blood kills me. [2] And that's why there's a team of psychologists with specific oncology training in my hospital, as well as religious support for the people that want it.
- chimen 9y ago
  Sorry to hear of your condition and I wish you a full recovery. I don't want to sound arrogant either nor do I wish to take anything from you. I gave it an extra thought and, for me, it may also be the system that's at fault. When he died they (the hospital) made me gather at least 5 liters of blood donated (friends, family etc) otherwise they won't help him. I also had to buy even the syringes and other super-basic stuff because "they were out". I probably lost my trust in the medical system we have here and I'm simply horrified at the idea of having to rely on it.

by chimen 9y ago

Robotbeat 9y ago

Panic attacks and depression are what we often imagine being told we'll die will do to us, but I've heard anecdotes that suggest the opposite: a sense of peaceful resignation and acceptance.

fapjacks 9y ago
This is one of the reasons so many people in execution videos seem resigned to their fate; because they are. Just listen to stories people tell about narrowly escaping these kinds of deaths. Many of them talk about how they knew what was coming and had come to terms with it.
- chimen 9y ago
  You are surely referring to the last moments of their lives and not the journey from finding out they're going to die until that moment you are talking about. There's a lot of adrenaline and other chemicals being released in such situations. I had a friend pass out 1 second before hitting a pillar with the car (her boyfriend had to pull the wheel and crash into a dog house). The brain finds ways to protect you from pain and it often shuts down in such cases when there's no room to contemplate. I think the subconscious kicks in/takes over. I was talking about the long wait many have to go through from finding out...to their final breath. From denial to acceptance might be a long road that scares me and I'm not sure if every bit of information can be beneficial or detrimental.
  - Robotbeat 9y ago
    You should watch this video of an EMP's decision to start telling people the truth (i.e. that they're dying): https://www.ted.com/talks/matthew_o_reilly_am_i_dying_the_honest_answer https://www.ted.com/talks/matthew_o_reilly_am_i_dying_the_ho...
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    I have personally been in a few of these moments in my life, when I was thought that I would be killed. I have never been a hostage on my way to my own execution, but I have narrowly escaped death in combat a few times when I thought beforehand that surely I would not make it. There is a lot of adrenaline, and the human mind definitely employs some tricks to shield us from realizing our own fate, or at least to stop us from applying much critical thinking about the situation. Being so close to death is a very base, very visceral, animal thing. Incidentally, this is closely related to one of the reasons I grew to feel at peace while fighting and at war -- and the chief reason I have such a hard time with civilian life afterwards -- and in a way, I came to enjoy it (I waited a couple of days to post this comment because the reality of it will shock the conscience of many, but I wanted to be honest). Not of course the moments where things are going quite badly, but the more base existence. That feeling is totally unique, of being there on the edge of life where everything is so simple, and where nothing else matters, or nothing else seems to matter very much. From talking to people and hearing stories, I suppose most people think of family when they're close to death. I didn't so much think about family as much as I had kind of very simple and straightforward "aw-shucks" moments of regret about not doing the things I wanted to do in life before I got into those situations where thought I would be killed. Incidentally, after my tours, I traveled a lot in order to settle those regrets and ended up meeting a woman that became my wife. I also created some very deep and meaningful friendships. I'm kind of getting off track here, but my original point was that what you've said is true, but at least for my part, "the long wait" is only happening after the fact. Navigating through the civilian world has been a really tough experience after all that, specifically those times where I thought surely I was a dead man. That was something I didn't expect, "the long wait" coming after everything else.

deanCommie 9y ago

I fully agree. I already have enough anxiety about my own inevitable mortality. If I was in that position, I would not want to know. I'd want to think about getting better, and I'd want to appreciate the time I had with my friends and loved ones without an omnipresent feeling of impending demise.

quakenul 9y ago

Preamble: I assume that you are okay with critically discussing your comment. If you don't, please just stop reading here :) This is the issue that has been described in the topmost comment, isn't it? Talking about ones own ongoing dieing process might be the hardest thing to ever do but by not talking about it a person is set to die alone. We can make assumptions about how a particular person feels about that and whether it benefits them (or us) but it is very unlikely the person is entirely oblivious to what's going on. There is going to be despair and sleepless nights and we could help with that. How could this be the one thing on earth that talking intimately about doesn't provide comfort? By the way I am a fucking coward and this is mostly me thinking out loud.

loopbit 9y ago

I've written and deleted this comment several times, I'm just not sure how to say all i want to say and I don't want to come across as arrogant or melodramatic but I disagree and I think that you underestimate your own capacity to adapt. Let's see if I can explain myself: I was diagnosed with leukaemia three years ago and now I'm on the last weeks of the treatment, for the moment (and waiting for the last bone marrow tests), it looks like the treatment has worked (although there's a decent chance of cancer coming back in the next few years). Speaking for myself, one of the things that frustrates me is the reluctance from doctors to give a straight answer. I had to ask several times to get a decent idea of the worst case scenario[0]. For me, having a clear vision helped me frame all the other possible scenarios, from the best possible "cancer is gone forever" to the more probable "treatment will work but in 10-15 years I'll develop another cancer" as well as lining up the available treatments[1]. I don't consider myself specially brave, but I prefer to know the truth, no matter how painful it is. Most of the cancer patients I know think along the same lines (some really brave people there). I accept that some people might not handle the situation well[2], but based on my limited observations, there may be less than you seem to think. To finish this, I don't know about your father's situation (I'm sorry for your loss, btw) and I might be completely wrong on this (and I apologize if this offends you, it's definitely not my intention), but I'd consider the idea that your father knew and that at least part of his talk about going fishing was his way of trying to cheer you up and protecting you. I know I've done that with my own family. --- [0] The question was "Assuming the treatment doesn't work, what can I expect?". The most direct answer I got (after all the evasives) was "It will be painless", which is code for "We will pump you full of morphine". [1] If the leukaemia is not completely gone or it returns I still have the option of a bone marrow transplant (although it will probably destroy my liver and will need a liver transplant too), I could also go for immunotherapy, which has shown very good results with my type of leukaemia but, as far as I know, only one hospital in Europe has the equipment necessary to do it. Worst case... well, we'll see, but even then I have 2-3 options that don't involve being a husk full of morphine until the lack of oxygen in blood kills me. [2] And that's why there's a team of psychologists with specific oncology training in my hospital, as well as religious support for the people that want it.

chimen 9y ago
Sorry to hear of your condition and I wish you a full recovery. I don't want to sound arrogant either nor do I wish to take anything from you. I gave it an extra thought and, for me, it may also be the system that's at fault. When he died they (the hospital) made me gather at least 5 liters of blood donated (friends, family etc) otherwise they won't help him. I also had to buy even the syringes and other super-basic stuff because "they were out". I probably lost my trust in the medical system we have here and I'm simply horrified at the idea of having to rely on it.