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"We live in a culture where it has been rubbed into us that to die is a terrible thing. And that is a tremendous disease from which our culture suffers, and we

by ivm 9y ago

"We live in a culture where it has been rubbed into us that to die is a terrible thing. And that is a tremendous disease from which our culture suffers, and we notice it firstly in the way in which death is swept under the carpet. This is one of the major problems in hospitals — when a family conspires with the doctor to keep from grandmother the knowledge that she is dying. Grandmother suspects that she is dying but probably doesn’t really want to know for sure and her family talk with her in such a way as to say, 'Well you’re probably be getting alright in a few weeks' — because they have this funny feeling that it’s important to build up courage and hope. And so they become liars and the mutual mistrust develops. So the person is left to die alone, suddenly, unprepared, and doped up to the point where death hardly happens. And there is no derivation from it of the peculiar spiritual experience that can come with death." – Alan Watts

JoshTriplett 9y ago
> We live in a culture where it has been rubbed into us that to die is a terrible thing. Not nearly enough, or we'd do more about it on a systematic basic. It's an abstract kind of professing of it being terrible (leaving aside people who don't even manage to do that much), without any of the concrete action that could take place if it was actually treated as a horrific tragedy on a species-wide scale.
- ivm 9y ago
  I'd say it has more to do with our overall poor long-term planning capabilities.
  - JoshTriplett 9y ago
    I'd argue it has more to do with widespread cultural taboos about what it's "acceptable" to challenge and what deviates too far from the norm.
    - drb91 9y ago
      Well, it's certainly acceptable to challenge it, but fear of death is rather dogmatic and polarizing. Many people, from diverse backgrounds of philosophy, have submitted world views where the quality of life and your impact matters more than your length of time. Others, like many on this forum, I suspect, have argued we should be investing in fighting death and aging, using war and financial metaphors, without establishing why this is such a worthwhile fight and/or investment. Why length of life and not quality of life? For sure, they're related, but how you frame these questions will dictate the response and interest in the conversation. I doubt humans as a whole will ever feel strongly that death is a negative force. However, improving quality of life is one of the easiest pitches to make, and doesn't necessarily disproportionally value the rich. In fact, the least worthwhile place to spend improving the quality of life would be people with enough money to dictate it already. But hey—the idea of living for centuries is cool, I always wanted to be an elf.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        > without establishing why this is such a worthwhile fight and/or investment I'd say it's fundamental, and on the short-term, we all understand that as a civilization. That's why every society protects its member from threats, including crime, fire, natural disasters, famine, war. It's not just about quality - you may live the happiest of lives, up until the point a bullet enters your brain[0]. I think there are three main moral reasons for fighting death: - suffering in the process of death itself - existential suffering of knowing your time is limited, and that of knowing you're about to die - suffering of those who you leave behind Efforts against #1 connect to quality of life, and with progress on that field, it could be resolved. #2 and #3 won't go away until we achieve (effective) immortality, and for many (myself included) they are the reason to support life extension. But maybe you're right, that a stronger pitch along #1 would help gather extra support. Then there are economic debates about whether our societies could survive sudden doubling of expected lifespans, or whether we'll be able to offload people fast enough to off-world colonies. I say, we'll figure it out as we go along - it's a nice problem to have, as opposed to death. -- [0] - probably one of the most humane ways to die; one can hardly leave this world without suffering during the process of departure.
chimen 9y ago
I don't know...I see a silver line here. There are many situations where putting everything on the table might make the situation worse. Something like a negative placebo effect can occur here and, for patients that may still have a battle in them, the depression and fear resulted from knowing too many things might worsen things. My father died 8 years ago and I remember that we all knew he had just a few weeks left in him. We didn't tell him and no doctor did either. He was still talking about how he can't wait to go fishing once he gets out of there. I think it was something nice to keep him from diving down in panic attacks and depression as I imagine I would knowing that my situation is that bad. I'm not so brave and I don't know if I would like someone to tell if I'm about to die soon...maybe I would; this is hard to discuss from outside.
- Robotbeat 9y ago
  Panic attacks and depression are what we often imagine being told we'll die will do to us, but I've heard anecdotes that suggest the opposite: a sense of peaceful resignation and acceptance.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    This is one of the reasons so many people in execution videos seem resigned to their fate; because they are. Just listen to stories people tell about narrowly escaping these kinds of deaths. Many of them talk about how they knew what was coming and had come to terms with it.
    - chimen 9y ago
      You are surely referring to the last moments of their lives and not the journey from finding out they're going to die until that moment you are talking about. There's a lot of adrenaline and other chemicals being released in such situations. I had a friend pass out 1 second before hitting a pillar with the car (her boyfriend had to pull the wheel and crash into a dog house). The brain finds ways to protect you from pain and it often shuts down in such cases when there's no room to contemplate. I think the subconscious kicks in/takes over. I was talking about the long wait many have to go through from finding out...to their final breath. From denial to acceptance might be a long road that scares me and I'm not sure if every bit of information can be beneficial or detrimental.

by ivm 9y ago

JoshTriplett 9y ago

> We live in a culture where it has been rubbed into us that to die is a terrible thing. Not nearly enough, or we'd do more about it on a systematic basic. It's an abstract kind of professing of it being terrible (leaving aside people who don't even manage to do that much), without any of the concrete action that could take place if it was actually treated as a horrific tragedy on a species-wide scale.

ivm 9y ago
I'd say it has more to do with our overall poor long-term planning capabilities.
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  I'd argue it has more to do with widespread cultural taboos about what it's "acceptable" to challenge and what deviates too far from the norm.
  - drb91 9y ago
    Well, it's certainly acceptable to challenge it, but fear of death is rather dogmatic and polarizing. Many people, from diverse backgrounds of philosophy, have submitted world views where the quality of life and your impact matters more than your length of time. Others, like many on this forum, I suspect, have argued we should be investing in fighting death and aging, using war and financial metaphors, without establishing why this is such a worthwhile fight and/or investment. Why length of life and not quality of life? For sure, they're related, but how you frame these questions will dictate the response and interest in the conversation. I doubt humans as a whole will ever feel strongly that death is a negative force. However, improving quality of life is one of the easiest pitches to make, and doesn't necessarily disproportionally value the rich. In fact, the least worthwhile place to spend improving the quality of life would be people with enough money to dictate it already. But hey—the idea of living for centuries is cool, I always wanted to be an elf.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      > without establishing why this is such a worthwhile fight and/or investment I'd say it's fundamental, and on the short-term, we all understand that as a civilization. That's why every society protects its member from threats, including crime, fire, natural disasters, famine, war. It's not just about quality - you may live the happiest of lives, up until the point a bullet enters your brain[0]. I think there are three main moral reasons for fighting death: - suffering in the process of death itself - existential suffering of knowing your time is limited, and that of knowing you're about to die - suffering of those who you leave behind Efforts against #1 connect to quality of life, and with progress on that field, it could be resolved. #2 and #3 won't go away until we achieve (effective) immortality, and for many (myself included) they are the reason to support life extension. But maybe you're right, that a stronger pitch along #1 would help gather extra support. Then there are economic debates about whether our societies could survive sudden doubling of expected lifespans, or whether we'll be able to offload people fast enough to off-world colonies. I say, we'll figure it out as we go along - it's a nice problem to have, as opposed to death. -- [0] - probably one of the most humane ways to die; one can hardly leave this world without suffering during the process of departure.

chimen 9y ago

I don't know...I see a silver line here. There are many situations where putting everything on the table might make the situation worse. Something like a negative placebo effect can occur here and, for patients that may still have a battle in them, the depression and fear resulted from knowing too many things might worsen things. My father died 8 years ago and I remember that we all knew he had just a few weeks left in him. We didn't tell him and no doctor did either. He was still talking about how he can't wait to go fishing once he gets out of there. I think it was something nice to keep him from diving down in panic attacks and depression as I imagine I would knowing that my situation is that bad. I'm not so brave and I don't know if I would like someone to tell if I'm about to die soon...maybe I would; this is hard to discuss from outside.

Robotbeat 9y ago
Panic attacks and depression are what we often imagine being told we'll die will do to us, but I've heard anecdotes that suggest the opposite: a sense of peaceful resignation and acceptance.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  This is one of the reasons so many people in execution videos seem resigned to their fate; because they are. Just listen to stories people tell about narrowly escaping these kinds of deaths. Many of them talk about how they knew what was coming and had come to terms with it.
  - chimen 9y ago
    You are surely referring to the last moments of their lives and not the journey from finding out they're going to die until that moment you are talking about. There's a lot of adrenaline and other chemicals being released in such situations. I had a friend pass out 1 second before hitting a pillar with the car (her boyfriend had to pull the wheel and crash into a dog house). The brain finds ways to protect you from pain and it often shuts down in such cases when there's no room to contemplate. I think the subconscious kicks in/takes over. I was talking about the long wait many have to go through from finding out...to their final breath. From denial to acceptance might be a long road that scares me and I'm not sure if every bit of information can be beneficial or detrimental.