8 ms·

Of the people I know who have a pilots license, the ones who seem pleased/proud/positive about it are those who are (lucky enough) to own/co-own a plane. As wa

by dotBen 16y ago

Of the people I know who have a pilots license, the ones who seem pleased/proud/positive about it are those who are (lucky enough) to own/co-own a plane. As was pointed out with me, the right planes don't loose value/much value and so once you own a plane your running costs are low. Then you can book a weekend in Tahoe (I'm in SF) and just fly the plane out. The people for whom flying is expensive is, ironically, those who don't own a plane and have to rent. By the time you've rented (paid + time to organize that, you might as well just fly commercially)

bbatsell 16y ago
It is absolutely impossible to fly somewhere cheaper than commercial whether you own or rent — it's pretty basic economies of scale. Private pilots do not do it to save money; they do it for the love of flight itself.
- MichaelGG 16y ago
  Love of flight, or dislike of how dreary the TSA and current airlines make it?
- Vivtek 16y ago
  This is something I've wondered about for a while. We have a family of four - where does that economy of scale start to tip the balance? At what point does the increment of cost for private flight get small enough that you say, "OK, for being able to fly out of the local airport on a day's notice, that's worth it?"
  - benofsky 16y ago
    I think it's unlikely that you're ever gonna reach a point where it's reasonable for a family but with say 10 executives who are paid thousands of dollars an hour, then it starts to make sense.
  - neurotech1 16y ago
    Try buying a plane ticket for business at the last minute, it isn't cheap. A Group of 2-4 business people, for a shorter flight, I'd imagine it would be cheaper to fly a Cessna. No queue at airport security.
  - helveticaman 16y ago
    Probably worth it east of the Mississippi, because of the hub-and-spoke model airports have.
  - sokoloff 16y ago
    If your frame of reference is an economy coach ticket, if you say "it's more expensive to fly private", you'll almost never be wrong. (Your economy coach ticket is heavily subsidized by the first-class and other full-fare tickets.) If your frame of reference is a first-class or full-fare business class ticket, I can often beat or near the airlines on both cost and door-to-door time. (If the keys to the plane are in your pocket, there's no getting there an hour ahead, dealing with the parking garage, the TSA theater, maybe a delay on takeoff for crew or aircraft availability or ATC/ground holds, perhaps changing planes, waiting at baggage claim, etc. Plus, I can often start and end the flight much closer to the "doors" I want to be at, leave my shoes on and carry 4 oz of gel deodorant in my bag if I want.) As to "that's worth it", I bought a Cessna 182/Skylane (4 seat, single-engine, 160 mph high-wing) a little over 12 years ago, and have flown it for business travel as well as most of our in-US, east of the Mississippi, personal travel, as well as a few trips west of the Mississippi. It costs me under $2/mile on average, and the direct operating cost (aka marginal cost: the cost of an incremental trip within a year) is just under $1/mile. If I had to, I'd pay 2x what flying actually costs me without thinking about it. If you want to travel in your aircraft (as opposed to just going flying), I'd suggest you take the traditional route and go all the way to the private pilot's license. Far fewer restrictions, and if you enjoy flying anyway all of the "extra" time is hardly wasted. IMO, there are too many restrictions on LSA/recreational pilot's certificate to make it usable to actual go places with 3 friends, etc. It's nice to be able to fly into BWI for an Orioles game, or fly up the Hudson River at night, cross Central park and Laguardi tower and head out on course over the Whitestone bridge. I think it's great that the FAA created the easier licenses, but I don't think they are practical for travelling. Used airplanes are reasonably cheap now, and loans and insurance are easy to get. (Most airplanes are made of aluminum and have nearly infinite lifespans, with avionics, engine/props, interior and paint being replaceable items over the life of the plane. Think of a 30-year old airplane as much more like a 30-year old office building than a 30-year old car in terms of "acceptable to rely on". They're inspected annually [or ever 100 flight hours for rentals/commercial usage], and no reason a 30+ year old plane wouldn't be perfectly reasonable.)
    - Retric 16y ago
      Airplanes have less fudge factor and more stress than Office building so while an office building might last 30-300 years with little problem, all airplanes have a shorter lifespan. (Assuming regular use.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_%28material%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_%28material%29 Note: Damage is cumulative. Materials do not recover when rested. And if you look at the bottom of the page you will find a fairly long list of airplanes that failed.
- sammyo 16y ago
  Depends somewhat where you fly. From one major city to another major hub airport no question. But across a couple states that are not major routes say a small town in Montana to Wyoming, it could be a significant differential.
- gaius 16y ago
  There are too many variables to say that for certain. The corporate jet for example isn't pure ostentation; if you fly enough, or at short notice, or between airfields that aren't well served, it might well be worth it.
coin 16y ago
> As was pointed out with me, the right planes don't loose value/much value and so once you own a plane your running costs are low. Unless you're flying more than 100 hours a year, renting is almost always cheaper than owning. Consider a simple single engine Cessna 172. The per hour operating costs are: - Gas, $42.5 (8.5 gallon/hour, $5.00/gallon) - Oil, $5 ($250 oil change every 50 hours) - Engine replacement, $7.50 ($15000 overhaul every 2000 hours) Total = $55/hour The fixed costs per year are: - Annual inspection, $1000 - Insurance, $1000 - Tie-down/hanger, $1200-2400 ($100-200 month) Total = $3200-4400/year Assuming 100 hours per year the cost is $87-99/hour. This is an over simplified conservative estimate, it doesn't include other routine maintenance such as tires, breaks, transponder check, pitot-static check, ELT check as well as unforeseen items (radios, starters, vacuum pump, etc). Renting a Cessna 172 is about $90-120/hour. By the way, 100 hours per year is a lot. Most recreational pilots are lucky to fly half that per year.
- dotBen 16y ago
  See my comment above (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1606321 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1606321) as it also answers your comment.
dcreemer 16y ago
"...once you own a plane your running costs are low..." not really. I owned a light-sport plane for ~ two years. It was a great airplane, and cost about $20/hour for fuel to operate (and cruised at about 110 mph). However, the tie-down was about $1500/year; insurance was about $2k/year; and maintenance was about $2k/year. These are the fixed costs -- $4500/year (call it $5K since I'm forgetting stuff I'm sure). Flying 100 hours/year == 100x $20 = $2000 + $5k fixed / 100 hours == $70/hr "real operating costs). I can rent a much more capable plane (Piper Archer) for $120 per hour, and not have to worry about any ownership issues. In addition, you can't just run up to Tahoe (at least you can't plan on it). I'm also in the SF area, and fly out of Palo Alto Airport (great place, btw). I've been to Truckee / Tahoe many times in small planes & the trip is great. But don't book a hotel, tell the spouse and make other arrangements assuming you're going to fly up -- what if the weather is bad? What if the weather is marginal? Do you go then? The moment you get into thinking along those lines, you're dead (usually literally). Owning a plane is about having something that is _yours_ -- a plane where I know the condition and use of every last radio, instrument, wheel and bolt. All that aside, I strongly recommend learning to fly if you're at all interested. I have been lots of amazing places, seen fascinating things, tested my skills, and once bumped into Clint Eastwood :-). I'd be happy to mentor anyone interested in learning -- http://projectpilot.aopa.org/projectpilot/ http://projectpilot.aopa.org/projectpilot/ edit: formatting
- dotBen 16y ago
  to you and others that have commented on the running costs are low... The example I'm thinking of is a friend who sold his plane for more than he paid for it (I don't know exactly what type but it was more executive jet than single prop - it had a pressurized cabin etc). Anyway, he sold the plane for more than he paid for it and so after accounting for maintenance and hanger fees he basically only had to pay fuel as his costs (and probably even had some of that off-set by the profit on the sale). In the same manner I know people who run cars like this - buy sports cars at the top of the list when they come out, receive the vehicle and then drive it for 12 months at which point they can sell it at cost price to someone who would otherwise have to get on at the back of the waiting list. They zero out in terms of loss, and so repeat the cycle having already jumped on the list for the next years model. You have to have the float for the cost of 1-2 cars but you never loose money net. It's how the rich stay rich, I guess.

by dotBen 16y ago

bbatsell 16y ago

It is absolutely impossible to fly somewhere cheaper than commercial whether you own or rent — it's pretty basic economies of scale. Private pilots do not do it to save money; they do it for the love of flight itself.

MichaelGG 16y ago
Love of flight, or dislike of how dreary the TSA and current airlines make it?
Vivtek 16y ago
This is something I've wondered about for a while. We have a family of four - where does that economy of scale start to tip the balance? At what point does the increment of cost for private flight get small enough that you say, "OK, for being able to fly out of the local airport on a day's notice, that's worth it?"
- benofsky 16y ago
  I think it's unlikely that you're ever gonna reach a point where it's reasonable for a family but with say 10 executives who are paid thousands of dollars an hour, then it starts to make sense.
- neurotech1 16y ago
  Try buying a plane ticket for business at the last minute, it isn't cheap. A Group of 2-4 business people, for a shorter flight, I'd imagine it would be cheaper to fly a Cessna. No queue at airport security.
- helveticaman 16y ago
  Probably worth it east of the Mississippi, because of the hub-and-spoke model airports have.
- sokoloff 16y ago
  If your frame of reference is an economy coach ticket, if you say "it's more expensive to fly private", you'll almost never be wrong. (Your economy coach ticket is heavily subsidized by the first-class and other full-fare tickets.) If your frame of reference is a first-class or full-fare business class ticket, I can often beat or near the airlines on both cost and door-to-door time. (If the keys to the plane are in your pocket, there's no getting there an hour ahead, dealing with the parking garage, the TSA theater, maybe a delay on takeoff for crew or aircraft availability or ATC/ground holds, perhaps changing planes, waiting at baggage claim, etc. Plus, I can often start and end the flight much closer to the "doors" I want to be at, leave my shoes on and carry 4 oz of gel deodorant in my bag if I want.) As to "that's worth it", I bought a Cessna 182/Skylane (4 seat, single-engine, 160 mph high-wing) a little over 12 years ago, and have flown it for business travel as well as most of our in-US, east of the Mississippi, personal travel, as well as a few trips west of the Mississippi. It costs me under $2/mile on average, and the direct operating cost (aka marginal cost: the cost of an incremental trip within a year) is just under $1/mile. If I had to, I'd pay 2x what flying actually costs me without thinking about it. If you want to travel in your aircraft (as opposed to just going flying), I'd suggest you take the traditional route and go all the way to the private pilot's license. Far fewer restrictions, and if you enjoy flying anyway all of the "extra" time is hardly wasted. IMO, there are too many restrictions on LSA/recreational pilot's certificate to make it usable to actual go places with 3 friends, etc. It's nice to be able to fly into BWI for an Orioles game, or fly up the Hudson River at night, cross Central park and Laguardi tower and head out on course over the Whitestone bridge. I think it's great that the FAA created the easier licenses, but I don't think they are practical for travelling. Used airplanes are reasonably cheap now, and loans and insurance are easy to get. (Most airplanes are made of aluminum and have nearly infinite lifespans, with avionics, engine/props, interior and paint being replaceable items over the life of the plane. Think of a 30-year old airplane as much more like a 30-year old office building than a 30-year old car in terms of "acceptable to rely on". They're inspected annually [or ever 100 flight hours for rentals/commercial usage], and no reason a 30+ year old plane wouldn't be perfectly reasonable.)
  - Retric 16y ago
    Airplanes have less fudge factor and more stress than Office building so while an office building might last 30-300 years with little problem, all airplanes have a shorter lifespan. (Assuming regular use.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_%28material%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_%28material%29 Note: Damage is cumulative. Materials do not recover when rested. And if you look at the bottom of the page you will find a fairly long list of airplanes that failed.
sammyo 16y ago
Depends somewhat where you fly. From one major city to another major hub airport no question. But across a couple states that are not major routes say a small town in Montana to Wyoming, it could be a significant differential.
gaius 16y ago
There are too many variables to say that for certain. The corporate jet for example isn't pure ostentation; if you fly enough, or at short notice, or between airfields that aren't well served, it might well be worth it.

coin 16y ago

> As was pointed out with me, the right planes don't loose value/much value and so once you own a plane your running costs are low. Unless you're flying more than 100 hours a year, renting is almost always cheaper than owning. Consider a simple single engine Cessna 172. The per hour operating costs are: - Gas, $42.5 (8.5 gallon/hour, $5.00/gallon) - Oil, $5 ($250 oil change every 50 hours) - Engine replacement, $7.50 ($15000 overhaul every 2000 hours) Total = $55/hour The fixed costs per year are: - Annual inspection, $1000 - Insurance, $1000 - Tie-down/hanger, $1200-2400 ($100-200 month) Total = $3200-4400/year Assuming 100 hours per year the cost is $87-99/hour. This is an over simplified conservative estimate, it doesn't include other routine maintenance such as tires, breaks, transponder check, pitot-static check, ELT check as well as unforeseen items (radios, starters, vacuum pump, etc). Renting a Cessna 172 is about $90-120/hour. By the way, 100 hours per year is a lot. Most recreational pilots are lucky to fly half that per year.

dotBen 16y ago
See my comment above (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1606321 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1606321) as it also answers your comment.

dcreemer 16y ago

"...once you own a plane your running costs are low..." not really. I owned a light-sport plane for ~ two years. It was a great airplane, and cost about $20/hour for fuel to operate (and cruised at about 110 mph). However, the tie-down was about $1500/year; insurance was about $2k/year; and maintenance was about $2k/year. These are the fixed costs -- $4500/year (call it $5K since I'm forgetting stuff I'm sure). Flying 100 hours/year == 100x $20 = $2000 + $5k fixed / 100 hours == $70/hr "real operating costs). I can rent a much more capable plane (Piper Archer) for $120 per hour, and not have to worry about any ownership issues. In addition, you can't just run up to Tahoe (at least you can't plan on it). I'm also in the SF area, and fly out of Palo Alto Airport (great place, btw). I've been to Truckee / Tahoe many times in small planes & the trip is great. But don't book a hotel, tell the spouse and make other arrangements assuming you're going to fly up -- what if the weather is bad? What if the weather is marginal? Do you go then? The moment you get into thinking along those lines, you're dead (usually literally). Owning a plane is about having something that is _yours_ -- a plane where I know the condition and use of every last radio, instrument, wheel and bolt. All that aside, I strongly recommend learning to fly if you're at all interested. I have been lots of amazing places, seen fascinating things, tested my skills, and once bumped into Clint Eastwood :-). I'd be happy to mentor anyone interested in learning -- http://projectpilot.aopa.org/projectpilot/ http://projectpilot.aopa.org/projectpilot/ edit: formatting

dotBen 16y ago
to you and others that have commented on the running costs are low... The example I'm thinking of is a friend who sold his plane for more than he paid for it (I don't know exactly what type but it was more executive jet than single prop - it had a pressurized cabin etc). Anyway, he sold the plane for more than he paid for it and so after accounting for maintenance and hanger fees he basically only had to pay fuel as his costs (and probably even had some of that off-set by the profit on the sale). In the same manner I know people who run cars like this - buy sports cars at the top of the list when they come out, receive the vehicle and then drive it for 12 months at which point they can sell it at cost price to someone who would otherwise have to get on at the back of the waiting list. They zero out in terms of loss, and so repeat the cycle having already jumped on the list for the next years model. You have to have the float for the cost of 1-2 cars but you never loose money net. It's how the rich stay rich, I guess.