7 ms·

I spent more money than i should getting my license north of Seattle, and i don't regret it. it was a confidence builder and something i really recommend to hac

I spent more money than i should getting my license north of Seattle, and i don't regret it. it was a confidence builder and something i really recommend to hacker types - learning to fly is such a perfect combination of the technical and aesthetic, satisfying the need for beauty, freedom, and aventure and challenging your mind at the same time. Flying, after a while, can become routine and at a certain point the marginal value is low - it's expensive and if you're not going to be a professional pilot, it begins to seem like a very expensive and pointless hobby. but the experience of learning to fly is worth it. At the time i got my license it was a minimum of 40 hours so the sport pilot rating makes it a lot easier. however, i'm not sure that at 22 hours it's very safe to go up with someone else - it's easy to get overconfident in the pattern, make a turn a little too tight, and stall, and at 1000 feet above the ground, it's generally not recoverable. i didn't feel super confident in pretty much any situation (crosswind, busy airport, low clouds, etc) until around 80 hours. edit: pattern is the nice little box you make when you're flying around an airport, preparing to land... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfield_traffic_pattern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfield_traffic_pattern

diziet 16y ago
How expensive is expensive?
- spitfire 16y ago
  a cessna 172 burns 8gallons of 100octane fuel an hour. add min $60K for an airplane, depreciation, insurance, etc. Unless you go the homebuilt/experimental route. In which case you can fly something like a quickie q2 ($20-30K) and burn ~4gallons/hr of autogas. Oh also, the zenair zodiac 601 recently had a problem with its wings folding up in flight. Check that they've been corrected before you take a trip in one. Personally the sport pilot license bores me to death. Can't fly into busy airspace, can't fly more than 120mph or so, vfr only, single passenger, essentially overgrown ultralights.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - jodrellblank 16y ago
    Can't fly into busy airspace, can't fly more than 120mph or so, vfr only, single passenger, essentially overgrown ultralights. I don't understand what any of those restrictions have to to with making flying boring. Flying is only fun when you can fly into busy airspace? Why?
    - ehnus 16y ago
      It's not just that you can't fly into busy airspace, it's that you can't fly into airspace where you need to talk to an air traffic controller for VFR flight (class B-D). If you live in or near a big city chances are that the airports out of which you will want to fly will be close to airspace into which you cannot fly. It a hassle if you have to drive out to the boonies in order to start your flying trip or if you have to take the long way around a large block of busy airspace.
- rubyrescue 16y ago
  i spent around 15K and i have about 150 hours, in cessna 172s, a bit of time in mooneys, some time in a piper or three, learned how to fly in mountains and was about 80% of the way toward an instrument rating. So, i spent about $100/hr on average but i had about $120/hr of fun :)
  - raminf 16y ago
    Let's not forget the $100 hamburgers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$100_hamburger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$100_hamburger) :-)
    - jamesbkel 16y ago
      I was aware of the $100 hamburger, but from that article I found the link to 'Fantasy Flight'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_flight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_flight "Fantasy flights are charity flights operated by a host airline for locally disadvantaged and terminally ill children to fly to a fictitious destination." I'm still mulling this over, but my initial reaction is very mixed/slightly negative.
dotBen 16y ago
Of the people I know who have a pilots license, the ones who seem pleased/proud/positive about it are those who are (lucky enough) to own/co-own a plane. As was pointed out with me, the right planes don't loose value/much value and so once you own a plane your running costs are low. Then you can book a weekend in Tahoe (I'm in SF) and just fly the plane out. The people for whom flying is expensive is, ironically, those who don't own a plane and have to rent. By the time you've rented (paid + time to organize that, you might as well just fly commercially)
- bbatsell 16y ago
  It is absolutely impossible to fly somewhere cheaper than commercial whether you own or rent — it's pretty basic economies of scale. Private pilots do not do it to save money; they do it for the love of flight itself.
  - MichaelGG 16y ago
    Love of flight, or dislike of how dreary the TSA and current airlines make it?
  - Vivtek 16y ago
    This is something I've wondered about for a while. We have a family of four - where does that economy of scale start to tip the balance? At what point does the increment of cost for private flight get small enough that you say, "OK, for being able to fly out of the local airport on a day's notice, that's worth it?"
    - benofsky 16y ago
      I think it's unlikely that you're ever gonna reach a point where it's reasonable for a family but with say 10 executives who are paid thousands of dollars an hour, then it starts to make sense.
    - neurotech1 16y ago
      Try buying a plane ticket for business at the last minute, it isn't cheap. A Group of 2-4 business people, for a shorter flight, I'd imagine it would be cheaper to fly a Cessna. No queue at airport security.
todayiamme 16y ago
I can't afford to learn how to fly, but I've always wanted to do it. So, when I was a kid (8ish) my parents hooked me on aeromodelling, and I loved it like anything. I used to spend hours sanding away wood, which is quite incredible for an 8 year old. I know that isn't a substitute for the real deal, but for those of us who can't fork out 15K regularly for something it's worth it. Moreover, it's possible to make a drone these days. So, a lot of people over here could design a suitable balsa aircraft that could handle the payload and attach a battery with a small video camera to it and an arduino to control it. The biggest problem IMO would be the radio communication, but a lot of solutions exist for that too. I think that if someone is fairly dedicated they could make one for under $300 using spare parts, and it should be worth it too. As it scratches that itch in a much much cheaper way, and learn a lot about design too. A huge plus is that if you crash it your or other's life isn't, necessarily, on the line.
- elliottkember 16y ago
  I used to fly slope-soaring gliders back in Auckland, and I can't recommend it enough. A slope soarer is a little indestructible foam-and-tape plane that you hurl off a mountain - the wind against the slope provides lift, and you're off. The basic kit was about NZ$300 including the radio - you had to glue it together, sand it and tape it, which no time at all compared to balsa. Aerial combat was the best. Plus, running up and down hills all day got me quite fit.
  - MarkBook 16y ago
    I upvoted you because i thought people were in these things a belief sadly shown to be false by http://www.shallowsky.com/planes/weasel/slopetips.html http://www.shallowsky.com/planes/weasel/slopetips.html Aerial combat should have alerted me!
davidw 16y ago
> such a perfect combination of the technical and aesthetic, satisfying the need for beauty, freedom, and adventure Nice phrase - I feel the same way about cycling:-)
mcritz 16y ago
I agree that 22 hours is a ridiculously low number of hours to be allowed to fly. At 40 hours you’re still a danger to yourself and others because of lack of expertise. It’s interesting calculus. Who is willing to rent their planes to Sport Pilots? What will this do to insurance costs? At the same time, this might be beneficial to the general aviation community. GA gets fucked by airports, insurance companies, and oil companies. Maybe if there were more GA pilots, there’d be more members of AOPA (a lobbying group for GA). Maybe Sport Pilots will continue their education and get more advanced certificates. More people flying is both a blessing and a curse.
- ratsbane 16y ago
  I remember reading somewhere that pilot accident rates are high for very low-time pilots, then begin to decrease around 100 hours and then increase again between 500 and 1000 hours, perhaps as pilots become more confident than their skills deserve, and then from 1000 hours on, slowly decrease.
  - maigret 16y ago
    I can confirm hearing that also from flight safety experts.
amazon8848 16y ago
>Flying, after a while, can become routine and at a certain point the marginal value is low - it's expensive and if you're not going to be a professional pilot, it begins to seem like a very expensive and pointless hobby. but the experience of learning to fly is worth it. VERY well said! Exactly my experience!

diziet 16y ago

How expensive is expensive?

spitfire 16y ago
a cessna 172 burns 8gallons of 100octane fuel an hour. add min $60K for an airplane, depreciation, insurance, etc. Unless you go the homebuilt/experimental route. In which case you can fly something like a quickie q2 ($20-30K) and burn ~4gallons/hr of autogas. Oh also, the zenair zodiac 601 recently had a problem with its wings folding up in flight. Check that they've been corrected before you take a trip in one. Personally the sport pilot license bores me to death. Can't fly into busy airspace, can't fly more than 120mph or so, vfr only, single passenger, essentially overgrown ultralights.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- jodrellblank 16y ago
  Can't fly into busy airspace, can't fly more than 120mph or so, vfr only, single passenger, essentially overgrown ultralights. I don't understand what any of those restrictions have to to with making flying boring. Flying is only fun when you can fly into busy airspace? Why?
  - ehnus 16y ago
    It's not just that you can't fly into busy airspace, it's that you can't fly into airspace where you need to talk to an air traffic controller for VFR flight (class B-D). If you live in or near a big city chances are that the airports out of which you will want to fly will be close to airspace into which you cannot fly. It a hassle if you have to drive out to the boonies in order to start your flying trip or if you have to take the long way around a large block of busy airspace.
rubyrescue 16y ago
i spent around 15K and i have about 150 hours, in cessna 172s, a bit of time in mooneys, some time in a piper or three, learned how to fly in mountains and was about 80% of the way toward an instrument rating. So, i spent about $100/hr on average but i had about $120/hr of fun :)
- raminf 16y ago
  Let's not forget the $100 hamburgers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$100_hamburger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$100_hamburger) :-)
  - jamesbkel 16y ago
    I was aware of the $100 hamburger, but from that article I found the link to 'Fantasy Flight'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_flight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_flight "Fantasy flights are charity flights operated by a host airline for locally disadvantaged and terminally ill children to fly to a fictitious destination." I'm still mulling this over, but my initial reaction is very mixed/slightly negative.

dotBen 16y ago

Of the people I know who have a pilots license, the ones who seem pleased/proud/positive about it are those who are (lucky enough) to own/co-own a plane. As was pointed out with me, the right planes don't loose value/much value and so once you own a plane your running costs are low. Then you can book a weekend in Tahoe (I'm in SF) and just fly the plane out. The people for whom flying is expensive is, ironically, those who don't own a plane and have to rent. By the time you've rented (paid + time to organize that, you might as well just fly commercially)

bbatsell 16y ago
It is absolutely impossible to fly somewhere cheaper than commercial whether you own or rent — it's pretty basic economies of scale. Private pilots do not do it to save money; they do it for the love of flight itself.
- MichaelGG 16y ago
  Love of flight, or dislike of how dreary the TSA and current airlines make it?
- Vivtek 16y ago
  This is something I've wondered about for a while. We have a family of four - where does that economy of scale start to tip the balance? At what point does the increment of cost for private flight get small enough that you say, "OK, for being able to fly out of the local airport on a day's notice, that's worth it?"
  - benofsky 16y ago
    I think it's unlikely that you're ever gonna reach a point where it's reasonable for a family but with say 10 executives who are paid thousands of dollars an hour, then it starts to make sense.
  - neurotech1 16y ago
    Try buying a plane ticket for business at the last minute, it isn't cheap. A Group of 2-4 business people, for a shorter flight, I'd imagine it would be cheaper to fly a Cessna. No queue at airport security.

todayiamme 16y ago

I can't afford to learn how to fly, but I've always wanted to do it. So, when I was a kid (8ish) my parents hooked me on aeromodelling, and I loved it like anything. I used to spend hours sanding away wood, which is quite incredible for an 8 year old. I know that isn't a substitute for the real deal, but for those of us who can't fork out 15K regularly for something it's worth it. Moreover, it's possible to make a drone these days. So, a lot of people over here could design a suitable balsa aircraft that could handle the payload and attach a battery with a small video camera to it and an arduino to control it. The biggest problem IMO would be the radio communication, but a lot of solutions exist for that too. I think that if someone is fairly dedicated they could make one for under $300 using spare parts, and it should be worth it too. As it scratches that itch in a much much cheaper way, and learn a lot about design too. A huge plus is that if you crash it your or other's life isn't, necessarily, on the line.

elliottkember 16y ago
I used to fly slope-soaring gliders back in Auckland, and I can't recommend it enough. A slope soarer is a little indestructible foam-and-tape plane that you hurl off a mountain - the wind against the slope provides lift, and you're off. The basic kit was about NZ$300 including the radio - you had to glue it together, sand it and tape it, which no time at all compared to balsa. Aerial combat was the best. Plus, running up and down hills all day got me quite fit.
- MarkBook 16y ago
  I upvoted you because i thought people were in these things a belief sadly shown to be false by http://www.shallowsky.com/planes/weasel/slopetips.html http://www.shallowsky.com/planes/weasel/slopetips.html Aerial combat should have alerted me!

davidw 16y ago

> such a perfect combination of the technical and aesthetic, satisfying the need for beauty, freedom, and adventure Nice phrase - I feel the same way about cycling:-)

mcritz 16y ago

I agree that 22 hours is a ridiculously low number of hours to be allowed to fly. At 40 hours you’re still a danger to yourself and others because of lack of expertise. It’s interesting calculus. Who is willing to rent their planes to Sport Pilots? What will this do to insurance costs? At the same time, this might be beneficial to the general aviation community. GA gets fucked by airports, insurance companies, and oil companies. Maybe if there were more GA pilots, there’d be more members of AOPA (a lobbying group for GA). Maybe Sport Pilots will continue their education and get more advanced certificates. More people flying is both a blessing and a curse.

ratsbane 16y ago
I remember reading somewhere that pilot accident rates are high for very low-time pilots, then begin to decrease around 100 hours and then increase again between 500 and 1000 hours, perhaps as pilots become more confident than their skills deserve, and then from 1000 hours on, slowly decrease.
- maigret 16y ago
  I can confirm hearing that also from flight safety experts.

amazon8848 16y ago

>Flying, after a while, can become routine and at a certain point the marginal value is low - it's expensive and if you're not going to be a professional pilot, it begins to seem like a very expensive and pointless hobby. but the experience of learning to fly is worth it. VERY well said! Exactly my experience!