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The thing is that both activities were always clearly likely to be harmful, if you took a step back from the cultural perspective that accepted them so thorough

The thing is that both activities were always clearly likely to be harmful, if you took a step back from the cultural perspective that accepted them so thoroughly. Smoking tobacco is inhaling an acrid a mix of chemicals that makes you cough, kind of feel sick and lightheaded, smells awful and leaves a tan stain - it’s not hard to guess that it’s not healthy. Remember that half of people who die from tobacco die from heart disease, too, not cancer. Same with football. I was never attracted to sports where participants beat each other in the head repeatedly, whether it’s boxing or football. I don’t think it’s surprising to find out that people who experience concussions every week as part of their jobs and hobbies end up damaging their brains. Edit to add, It’s a bit frustrating, because surely if one was to stand up 30 years ago and say “hey, I don’t think this high school football program is a good idea because I’m worried about all these young people knocking their heads together with full force”... The response would have been to mock you and dispute it, if they paid any attention at all.

whyleyc 9y ago
"Both activities were always clearly likely to be harmful". With the benefit of 70 years of medical research this is an easy statement to make, but at the time this was far less clear - smoking was for a long time actively promoted as having health benefits [1][2] It's easy from a modern perspective to look back and apply our accumulated wisdom, but it was not self-evident that smoking was necessarily bad. Otherwise millions would not have signed up for an early death. [1]https://www.healthcare-administration-degree.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/8-Philip-Morris–Scientifically-Proved-Far-Less-Irritating-To-The-Nose-And-Throat.jpg https://www.healthcare-administration-degree.net/wp-content/... [2]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/50/4f/40504f0de983d78f3c0f0b22c2de0a3b--retro-ads-vintage-ads.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/50/4f/40504f0de983d78f3c0f0b22c...
- code_duck 9y ago
  It's true that smoking was promoted as healthful by parties with a financial interest. By clearly harmful, I mean that the indicators I listed should inform one's common sense that it is likely to be harmful, because physical senses perceive many things about tobacco smoke as unpleasant. For example, lore is replete with stories of young people's initial experiences with smoking involving coughing, choking, turning green and feeling nauseous or vomiting. There's also the fact that nicotine has long been known to be a poison as strong as cyanide, and has been used for insect control by Europeans as far back as 1763.
  - tzahola 9y ago
    The same can be said for exercising: you’re out of breath, your heart is racing, you can get dizzy and nauseous, you’re covered in sweat, and the next day all your muscles are aching. Surely, such an activity can’t be healthy! Of course after the first few sessions you’ll start to get used to it, and actually feel better after exercising. Just like how you feel better after smoking once you’re addicted.
    - code_duck 9y ago
      It seems like a stretch to compare the most normal activity ever, moving your body, to intentionally ingesting poison. For one, if exercise makes you dizzy, nauseous, sweaty, and all your muscles ache, you are either severely out of shape are overdoing it. I smoked for a fair portion of my life. The main motivation for addicts is to relieve the craving for tobacco. It’s pleasurable in some ways other than that, but cigarettes did not leave me feeling well most of the time.
      - bronson 9y ago
        You're wrong about exercise (ask any water polo player...) > cigarettes did not leave me feeling well most of the time. Sounds like an easy habit to kick!
        code_duck 9y ago
        No, not an easy habit to kick and that’s exactly the issue with cigarettes. Even though they’re not really that pleasant, they chemically trick your body into wanting them. Extremely vigorous sports is different than your average exercise. I’m still happy to assert that it’s a twisted analogy - If you compare the feeling from exercise to cigarettes, it’s obvious that they are not qualitatively similar, despite the fact that each involves some unpleasant sensations. Another significant thing to note is that over time, exercise clearly has positive effects on your body – you feel healthier, more muscular, lose weight, breathe easier. Cigarettes do not have a healthy effect on your body over time, and it doesn’t take a doctor to tell or modern medical technology to tell they are staining your teeth, making your breath bad, making you cough, and so forth. This was not lost on Europeans went tobacco was first introduced.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  We had similar problems with football over 110 years ago. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/teddy-roosevelt-saved-football-111146 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/teddy-roosev...
- nol13 9y ago
  And yet the stereotype of the dumb football jock who's had his head knocked a few too many times has been prevalent as long as I can remember. It's just that previously it was used as a punchline in sitcoms rather than seen as a serious health risk to our children. Except for 'Varsity Blues' (1999) I guess, and I'm sure other examples, where the evil coach telling the kid to play when another head injury could kill him was a main plot line.
  - wils1245 9y ago
    That may be so, but the widespread knowledge that most/all football players sustain serious brain damage was not there yet. Big hits that left the opponent slow to get up or unsteady on his feet were celebrated, on the assumption that he’d be able to shake it off after a day or so. That said, I do think the destructiveness of football in knees and backs has long been known. I remember them being detailed when reading “where are they now?” articles in Sports Illustrated as a kid (I’m 30).
    - code_duck 9y ago
      The scientific knowledge was not there yet, but I feel like it’s not hard to put together that football players and boxers suffer damage from being knocked in the head to dozen times a day for decades. My guess is probably this would have been figured out earlier if there wasn’t such a strong cultural desire to keep playing these sports.
ryanwaggoner 9y ago
Edit to add, It’s a bit frustrating, because surely if one was to stand up 30 years ago and say “hey, I don’t think this high school football program is a good idea because I’m worried about all these young people knocking their heads together with full force”... The response would have been to mock you and dispute it, if they paid any attention at all. 30 years ago? I bet you’d get this reaction today in large swaths of America. I’m positive you would have gotten it 5 years ago.
- wils1245 9y ago
  A couple that’s related to me had their kid play football in a rural area of the US. She’s a lawyer, and he has some memory issues from high school football. It blows me away that their kid plays.
- code_duck 9y ago
  Quite true, some of the stuff I was reading related to the study includes some coaches currently telling parents that they are overprotective fools if they are concerned about letting their children play football.
Balgair 9y ago
First: smoking and nicotine usage is harmful to you, full stop. That disclaimer out of the way, nicotine's prevalence is mostly due to it's addictive qualities. However, the usage of nicotine in WW2 and the industrialization of it's manufacture shortly before the war cannot be missed when talking about nicotine's prevalence mid-century. Nicotine, like any drug, has a multitude of effects. In certain situations, these effects can be beneficial. The only reason I can think of is: if you have a reasonable suspicion of major bodily trauma occurring before the side effects of nicotine wear off (you are about to die). Nicotine promotes alertness, calmness, and an adrenal response, lowering the flow of blood to the periphery and increasing blood pressure. At high concentrations, it also causes sedation.[0] Also, there is interesting research about those sedative properties in connection with schizophrenia.[1] Smoking a cigarette while on/near a battlefield is not a terrible decision. You may be more alert, calm and less panicked, already primed with adrenaline, and may experience less blood loss to limb wounds. Back at camp when you can smoke to your heart's (mal)content, you can sedate yourself as well. I'm not certain on the effects with PTSD, but as a sedatory drug, I would imagine it would lessen PTSD (no evidence here, just speculation). So, if you sling crack and have been sought after by your creditors, you may want to pick up a pack. If you are a SWAT team member about to go into a building, you may want to chew some gum. If you are in Aleppo currently, you may want to light up. Other than that, stay away from the stuff like the life killing poison it is meant to be. That said, when it comes to these types of sports, benefits may exist as well. For some people, those HS/Pop-Warner football years may be the best they have. The concept of 'hoop-dreams' is alive and well 30 years later [2] and is not just limited to basketball. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects [1] http://www.schizophrenia.com/nicotine.benefits.htm http://www.schizophrenia.com/nicotine.benefits.htm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams#Aftermath

whyleyc 9y ago

"Both activities were always clearly likely to be harmful". With the benefit of 70 years of medical research this is an easy statement to make, but at the time this was far less clear - smoking was for a long time actively promoted as having health benefits [1][2] It's easy from a modern perspective to look back and apply our accumulated wisdom, but it was not self-evident that smoking was necessarily bad. Otherwise millions would not have signed up for an early death. [1]https://www.healthcare-administration-degree.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/8-Philip-Morris–Scientifically-Proved-Far-Less-Irritating-To-The-Nose-And-Throat.jpg https://www.healthcare-administration-degree.net/wp-content/... [2]https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/50/4f/40504f0de983d78f3c0f0b22c2de0a3b--retro-ads-vintage-ads.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/50/4f/40504f0de983d78f3c0f0b22c...

code_duck 9y ago
It's true that smoking was promoted as healthful by parties with a financial interest. By clearly harmful, I mean that the indicators I listed should inform one's common sense that it is likely to be harmful, because physical senses perceive many things about tobacco smoke as unpleasant. For example, lore is replete with stories of young people's initial experiences with smoking involving coughing, choking, turning green and feeling nauseous or vomiting. There's also the fact that nicotine has long been known to be a poison as strong as cyanide, and has been used for insect control by Europeans as far back as 1763.
- tzahola 9y ago
  The same can be said for exercising: you’re out of breath, your heart is racing, you can get dizzy and nauseous, you’re covered in sweat, and the next day all your muscles are aching. Surely, such an activity can’t be healthy! Of course after the first few sessions you’ll start to get used to it, and actually feel better after exercising. Just like how you feel better after smoking once you’re addicted.
  - code_duck 9y ago
    It seems like a stretch to compare the most normal activity ever, moving your body, to intentionally ingesting poison. For one, if exercise makes you dizzy, nauseous, sweaty, and all your muscles ache, you are either severely out of shape are overdoing it. I smoked for a fair portion of my life. The main motivation for addicts is to relieve the craving for tobacco. It’s pleasurable in some ways other than that, but cigarettes did not leave me feeling well most of the time.
    - bronson 9y ago
      You're wrong about exercise (ask any water polo player...) > cigarettes did not leave me feeling well most of the time. Sounds like an easy habit to kick!
      - code_duck 9y ago
        No, not an easy habit to kick and that’s exactly the issue with cigarettes. Even though they’re not really that pleasant, they chemically trick your body into wanting them. Extremely vigorous sports is different than your average exercise. I’m still happy to assert that it’s a twisted analogy - If you compare the feeling from exercise to cigarettes, it’s obvious that they are not qualitatively similar, despite the fact that each involves some unpleasant sensations. Another significant thing to note is that over time, exercise clearly has positive effects on your body – you feel healthier, more muscular, lose weight, breathe easier. Cigarettes do not have a healthy effect on your body over time, and it doesn’t take a doctor to tell or modern medical technology to tell they are staining your teeth, making your breath bad, making you cough, and so forth. This was not lost on Europeans went tobacco was first introduced.
Spooky23 9y ago
We had similar problems with football over 110 years ago. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/teddy-roosevelt-saved-football-111146 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/09/teddy-roosev...
nol13 9y ago
And yet the stereotype of the dumb football jock who's had his head knocked a few too many times has been prevalent as long as I can remember. It's just that previously it was used as a punchline in sitcoms rather than seen as a serious health risk to our children. Except for 'Varsity Blues' (1999) I guess, and I'm sure other examples, where the evil coach telling the kid to play when another head injury could kill him was a main plot line.
- wils1245 9y ago
  That may be so, but the widespread knowledge that most/all football players sustain serious brain damage was not there yet. Big hits that left the opponent slow to get up or unsteady on his feet were celebrated, on the assumption that he’d be able to shake it off after a day or so. That said, I do think the destructiveness of football in knees and backs has long been known. I remember them being detailed when reading “where are they now?” articles in Sports Illustrated as a kid (I’m 30).
  - code_duck 9y ago
    The scientific knowledge was not there yet, but I feel like it’s not hard to put together that football players and boxers suffer damage from being knocked in the head to dozen times a day for decades. My guess is probably this would have been figured out earlier if there wasn’t such a strong cultural desire to keep playing these sports.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago

Edit to add, It’s a bit frustrating, because surely if one was to stand up 30 years ago and say “hey, I don’t think this high school football program is a good idea because I’m worried about all these young people knocking their heads together with full force”... The response would have been to mock you and dispute it, if they paid any attention at all. 30 years ago? I bet you’d get this reaction today in large swaths of America. I’m positive you would have gotten it 5 years ago.

wils1245 9y ago
A couple that’s related to me had their kid play football in a rural area of the US. She’s a lawyer, and he has some memory issues from high school football. It blows me away that their kid plays.
code_duck 9y ago
Quite true, some of the stuff I was reading related to the study includes some coaches currently telling parents that they are overprotective fools if they are concerned about letting their children play football.

Balgair 9y ago

First: smoking and nicotine usage is harmful to you, full stop. That disclaimer out of the way, nicotine's prevalence is mostly due to it's addictive qualities. However, the usage of nicotine in WW2 and the industrialization of it's manufacture shortly before the war cannot be missed when talking about nicotine's prevalence mid-century. Nicotine, like any drug, has a multitude of effects. In certain situations, these effects can be beneficial. The only reason I can think of is: if you have a reasonable suspicion of major bodily trauma occurring before the side effects of nicotine wear off (you are about to die). Nicotine promotes alertness, calmness, and an adrenal response, lowering the flow of blood to the periphery and increasing blood pressure. At high concentrations, it also causes sedation.[0] Also, there is interesting research about those sedative properties in connection with schizophrenia.[1] Smoking a cigarette while on/near a battlefield is not a terrible decision. You may be more alert, calm and less panicked, already primed with adrenaline, and may experience less blood loss to limb wounds. Back at camp when you can smoke to your heart's (mal)content, you can sedate yourself as well. I'm not certain on the effects with PTSD, but as a sedatory drug, I would imagine it would lessen PTSD (no evidence here, just speculation). So, if you sling crack and have been sought after by your creditors, you may want to pick up a pack. If you are a SWAT team member about to go into a building, you may want to chew some gum. If you are in Aleppo currently, you may want to light up. Other than that, stay away from the stuff like the life killing poison it is meant to be. That said, when it comes to these types of sports, benefits may exist as well. For some people, those HS/Pop-Warner football years may be the best they have. The concept of 'hoop-dreams' is alive and well 30 years later [2] and is not just limited to basketball. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Psychoactive_effects [1] http://www.schizophrenia.com/nicotine.benefits.htm http://www.schizophrenia.com/nicotine.benefits.htm [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams#Aftermath https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams#Aftermath