6 ms·

"Construction companies, which have given millions of dollars in campaign donations in recent years, have increased their projected costs by up to 50 percent wh

by vman81 9y ago

"Construction companies, which have given millions of dollars in campaign donations in recent years, have increased their projected costs by up to 50 percent when bidding for work from the M.T.A., contractors say." That's because you've legalized bribery. Your political system rewards corruption. Every actor in the described mess is (re)acting rationally. Is this somehow a surprise?

masterleep 9y ago
The surprise is the large number of seemingly intelligent people constantly bleating for more of the same.
chimeracoder 9y ago
> That's because you've legalized bribery. Your political system rewards corruption. Every actor in the described mess is (re)acting rationally. Is this somehow a surprise? Ugh, please stop saying this. Bribery is not legal in the US. We literally just tried a sitting US senator for corruption including bribery, and we just convicted the former Speaker of the New York State Assembly for corruption, including bribery and kickbacks. It's very much not legal. New York politics is an outlier - in fact, New York has literally the most corrupt government in the country. The problem isn't that it's legal (it's not legal); the problem is that New York has such a wide and extensive network of corruption (as this article shows) that it's damn-near impossible to actually address any of it.
- reustle 9y ago
  But campaign donations by corporate interests and lobbying _are_ essentially legal bribery.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > But campaign donations by corporate interests and lobbying _are_ essentially legal bribery. Campaign contributions and lobbying are not at all the same thing. First, "Corporate interests" are prohibited from making campaign contributions. Secondly, lobbying is simply the process of petitioning elected officials to persuade them to advocate your causes. That's not unique to the US; every democracy has a mechanism for that process.
- nkoren 9y ago
  Bribery absolutely is legal in America -- as long as the funds go towards campaign finance, rather than directly into the politician's personal pocket. Which then gets them a job, which puts funds in their pocket; and in exchange for which, they ensure that government contracts and regulations look favorably upon their donors. Call it what you want, but this is absolutely homomorphic with corruption.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Bribery absolutely is legal in America -- as long as the funds go towards campaign finance, rather than directly into the politician's personal pocket. Which then gets them a job, which puts funds in their pocket; and in exchange for which, they ensure that government contracts and regulations look favorably upon their donors. Call it what you want, but this is absolutely homomorphic with corruption. What you're describing is completely illegal. Politicians can be (and are) prosecuted for it, even in incredibly corrupt states like New York.
    - nkoren 9y ago
      Rubbish. As long as there is no explicit link between the money and the results, this is completely legal, open, and standard practice. Consider Senator Richard Shelby[1]. He is a staunch advocate of the "Space Launch System" -- a rocket program that looks the 2nd avenue subway look like a paragon of efficiency. He is an equally staunch opponent of "new-space" companies like SpaceX, which don't take cost-plus contracts or make significant campaign contributions.[2] Of course one could argue that he's just acting in accordance with his principles, and that it's just a crazy coincidence that Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon -- the prime SLS contractors -- are among his top 20 campaign contributors.[3] Nope, he's just acting in accordance to his principles, and they're, uh, just acting in accordance with, uh, theirs. No cause-and-effect here, nope, nothing to see. Bullshit. There's clearly a cause-and-effect, and this is completely standard practice across the whole of the government, and would absolutely be classed as bribery anywhere else in the world. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Shelby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Shelby 2: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/senator-complains-about-cost-increases-in-nasas-fixed-price-contracts/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/senator-complains-ab... 3: https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/contributors?cid=N00009920&cycle=2012&type=P https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/contributors...

by vman81 9y ago

masterleep 9y ago

The surprise is the large number of seemingly intelligent people constantly bleating for more of the same.

chimeracoder 9y ago

> That's because you've legalized bribery. Your political system rewards corruption. Every actor in the described mess is (re)acting rationally. Is this somehow a surprise? Ugh, please stop saying this. Bribery is not legal in the US. We literally just tried a sitting US senator for corruption including bribery, and we just convicted the former Speaker of the New York State Assembly for corruption, including bribery and kickbacks. It's very much not legal. New York politics is an outlier - in fact, New York has literally the most corrupt government in the country. The problem isn't that it's legal (it's not legal); the problem is that New York has such a wide and extensive network of corruption (as this article shows) that it's damn-near impossible to actually address any of it.

reustle 9y ago
But campaign donations by corporate interests and lobbying _are_ essentially legal bribery.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > But campaign donations by corporate interests and lobbying _are_ essentially legal bribery. Campaign contributions and lobbying are not at all the same thing. First, "Corporate interests" are prohibited from making campaign contributions. Secondly, lobbying is simply the process of petitioning elected officials to persuade them to advocate your causes. That's not unique to the US; every democracy has a mechanism for that process.
nkoren 9y ago
Bribery absolutely is legal in America -- as long as the funds go towards campaign finance, rather than directly into the politician's personal pocket. Which then gets them a job, which puts funds in their pocket; and in exchange for which, they ensure that government contracts and regulations look favorably upon their donors. Call it what you want, but this is absolutely homomorphic with corruption.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Bribery absolutely is legal in America -- as long as the funds go towards campaign finance, rather than directly into the politician's personal pocket. Which then gets them a job, which puts funds in their pocket; and in exchange for which, they ensure that government contracts and regulations look favorably upon their donors. Call it what you want, but this is absolutely homomorphic with corruption. What you're describing is completely illegal. Politicians can be (and are) prosecuted for it, even in incredibly corrupt states like New York.
  - nkoren 9y ago
    Rubbish. As long as there is no explicit link between the money and the results, this is completely legal, open, and standard practice. Consider Senator Richard Shelby[1]. He is a staunch advocate of the "Space Launch System" -- a rocket program that looks the 2nd avenue subway look like a paragon of efficiency. He is an equally staunch opponent of "new-space" companies like SpaceX, which don't take cost-plus contracts or make significant campaign contributions.[2] Of course one could argue that he's just acting in accordance with his principles, and that it's just a crazy coincidence that Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon -- the prime SLS contractors -- are among his top 20 campaign contributors.[3] Nope, he's just acting in accordance to his principles, and they're, uh, just acting in accordance with, uh, theirs. No cause-and-effect here, nope, nothing to see. Bullshit. There's clearly a cause-and-effect, and this is completely standard practice across the whole of the government, and would absolutely be classed as bribery anywhere else in the world. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Shelby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Shelby 2: https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/senator-complains-about-cost-increases-in-nasas-fixed-price-contracts/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/senator-complains-ab... 3: https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/contributors?cid=N00009920&cycle=2012&type=P https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/contributors...