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Is it? If we accept for the moment, that Lisa was just describing her sense of uneasiness -- her sense of trepidation -- that's different from "displaying my b

Is it? If we accept for the moment, that Lisa was just describing her sense of uneasiness -- her sense of trepidation -- that's different from "displaying my badass scars" or "telling it like it is about my actual life experiences". That does seem like a reasonable reading of the original article. I did start out by asking what dkarl thought about whether or not the original author would have thought differently, if a young man had said those things; or if his argument was that having trouble with saying those things was a problem. I'm not sure where you're going but it seems like you're saying, that I should accept your thoughts about your experiences as a conclusive answer to my question to dkarl. That seems strange.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
Both of those scenarios have a safe fall-back based on gender expectations. When you mix genders, the fall-backs disappear. In tech, this is virtually always a problem faced by a woman in a male-dominated workplace. If she's ever momentarily in doubt, there's no safe direction to err. This description indicates that women have no real choice but to handle it differently from a man, which kind of makes your question moot. One of the things I frequently talk about is having been molested and raped as a child. It certainly can happen to boys, but seems much more common for girls. This often gets me comments to the effect of "I am so sorry for what you suffered" as if I am in need of a shoulder to cry on. Given that I do it often in public on an overwhelmingly male forum, I have difficulty trying to fathom why that isn't interpreted as extremely thick skinned, ballsy bitch instead. But I don't get a whole lot of "Holy cow, woman. You really hold your own!" And I think I will stop there because I don't really know how to interact with your conclusions, so I am not sure good communication can happen here.
- solidsnack9000 9y ago
  This description indicates that women have no real choice but to handle it differently from a man, which kind of makes your question moot. This is a kind of assuming the conclusion. Maybe what dkarl is saying is right, maybe it isn’t; but my question is about investigating those ideas. Given that I do it often in public on an overwhelmingly male forum, I have difficulty trying to fathom why that isn’t interpreted as extremely thick skinned, ballsy bitch instead. Please know that I already think of you as someone who holds her own and is up to facing any challenger in this forum.
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    I am not assuming any conclusions. I was only trying to add firsthand experience to the mix as food for thought. I have long gotten a lot of pushback for apparently being pretty oblivious to cultural expectations for my gender. My reaction to that has been to wonder WTH? and then try to find a non confrontational path around it rather than simply cave to such social pressure. The fact that I have to do that at all suggests that, no, we wouldn't be having this discussion if the candidate had been male. It would have simply gone differently. Period. It's a little like saying "But what if a guy got his clitoris caught in the machinery?" And the answer is that a guy doesn't have a clitoris to get caught in the machinery (and the pro trans activists can kindly spare me the derail about how that comment is somehow transphobic, thanks). Women get enormous amounts of social pressure from the get go to straight up behave differently than men. I often fail to behave differently from men in certain metrics. The result is very often a whole lot of drama from people outraged that I am not toeing the line. And that outrage only makes sense if you accept that the rules are different for girls. I had to research why on earth I was getting so much pushback on HN when I first got here. I was a big fat nobody with an entry level job and no hope of promotion and some pathetic amount of karma. The level of blowback was insanely high for some big fat nobody who just wanted a place to run their damn mouth. It didn't add up until I discovered that I had a lot of karma for a woman, never mind that the amount of karma was not notable at all for the guys. Yet it was making waves. So, I don't know how to engage your comment effectively because I am not assuming a conclusion. I am trying to sum up 52 years of "if I do the same thing a guy does, wow, does that not go at all like it does for the guys and I can only conclude sexism has to be a factor in there somewhere." And you can do with that testimony as you see fit in terms of trying to understand what is going on in the world.

DoreenMichele 9y ago

Both of those scenarios have a safe fall-back based on gender expectations. When you mix genders, the fall-backs disappear. In tech, this is virtually always a problem faced by a woman in a male-dominated workplace. If she's ever momentarily in doubt, there's no safe direction to err. This description indicates that women have no real choice but to handle it differently from a man, which kind of makes your question moot. One of the things I frequently talk about is having been molested and raped as a child. It certainly can happen to boys, but seems much more common for girls. This often gets me comments to the effect of "I am so sorry for what you suffered" as if I am in need of a shoulder to cry on. Given that I do it often in public on an overwhelmingly male forum, I have difficulty trying to fathom why that isn't interpreted as extremely thick skinned, ballsy bitch instead. But I don't get a whole lot of "Holy cow, woman. You really hold your own!" And I think I will stop there because I don't really know how to interact with your conclusions, so I am not sure good communication can happen here.

solidsnack9000 9y ago
This description indicates that women have no real choice but to handle it differently from a man, which kind of makes your question moot. This is a kind of assuming the conclusion. Maybe what dkarl is saying is right, maybe it isn’t; but my question is about investigating those ideas. Given that I do it often in public on an overwhelmingly male forum, I have difficulty trying to fathom why that isn’t interpreted as extremely thick skinned, ballsy bitch instead. Please know that I already think of you as someone who holds her own and is up to facing any challenger in this forum.
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  I am not assuming any conclusions. I was only trying to add firsthand experience to the mix as food for thought. I have long gotten a lot of pushback for apparently being pretty oblivious to cultural expectations for my gender. My reaction to that has been to wonder WTH? and then try to find a non confrontational path around it rather than simply cave to such social pressure. The fact that I have to do that at all suggests that, no, we wouldn't be having this discussion if the candidate had been male. It would have simply gone differently. Period. It's a little like saying "But what if a guy got his clitoris caught in the machinery?" And the answer is that a guy doesn't have a clitoris to get caught in the machinery (and the pro trans activists can kindly spare me the derail about how that comment is somehow transphobic, thanks). Women get enormous amounts of social pressure from the get go to straight up behave differently than men. I often fail to behave differently from men in certain metrics. The result is very often a whole lot of drama from people outraged that I am not toeing the line. And that outrage only makes sense if you accept that the rules are different for girls. I had to research why on earth I was getting so much pushback on HN when I first got here. I was a big fat nobody with an entry level job and no hope of promotion and some pathetic amount of karma. The level of blowback was insanely high for some big fat nobody who just wanted a place to run their damn mouth. It didn't add up until I discovered that I had a lot of karma for a woman, never mind that the amount of karma was not notable at all for the guys. Yet it was making waves. So, I don't know how to engage your comment effectively because I am not assuming a conclusion. I am trying to sum up 52 years of "if I do the same thing a guy does, wow, does that not go at all like it does for the guys and I can only conclude sexism has to be a factor in there somewhere." And you can do with that testimony as you see fit in terms of trying to understand what is going on in the world.