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>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to ta

>> (Separately: Don't get an undergraduate degree in business. What a worthless degree.) It's hard for people to learn things like this if they're afraid to talk to people who've gone down that road for fear that an honest expression of concern will be read as a critical lack of confidence. Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle.

foobarchu 9y ago
I don't think the point was that she shouldn't have shared that information with peers at all, it's that she needs to be more careful about exactly who she's telling it to. OP may easily be in a position later of promoting her to another position. Even if she is confident in her choices by that point, OP will still have that information tucked in their mind, and will (maybe unconciously) utilize it in their decisions. Nobody is yelling at her or beating her down about this, but she needs to be more discrete in who she shares what information with. Even if you see someone as a friend, friends aren't all equally deserving of your hopes and fears. I think a good analogy is group projects in school. If you had a classmate who you were good friends with, and they had been sharing with you how much they were struggling and that they were considering dropping the class...wouldn't you factor that information in when choosing partners for a group project? You might decide that "no, I like them too much", and go with them, but it's going to be a decision you have to make because you already possess the information.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt.
  - harlanji 9y ago
    The one grayed down comment. I agree whole heartedly.
    - peoplewindow 9y ago
      It's by a shadowbanned account. You'd need to have showdead on to see it.
  - greenrd 9y ago
    The reality of group projects is that all too often, one person ends up doing most of the real work. Group projects don't need to be more infantilising, they need to be more "shape up or ship out!"
    - watwut 9y ago
      It is not infantilizing to accept expression of doubt or some kind of negative feeling. People have opinions and feelings and sometimes express them. Getting scared of that and yelling "shape up or ship out" is as immature as stopping the work altogether because of it. Also, in my experience, the people who express such feelings are the ones who tend to be willing to do a lot of work and also the boring work needed to finish the thing. The one person doing all the work in group project imo, is because group projects are quite dumb exercises. It has little to do how real cooperation in just a little competently managed work works and keeps more hardworking people hostage to lazy ones. Regardless of whether it is lazy or hardworking who is more open about his state of mind. It has nothing to do with infantilization - many adults in same situation will slack, because that is how incentives are lined up.
  - 111_1_111 9y ago
    > A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. Yeah, and a bad group project with somebody who is dumb enough to express their vulnerability to me might be what drags my grade from an A to a B. > If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt. I hope you realize that this is meaningless nonsense.
crispyambulance 9y ago
The thing is you can never _really_ know, in advance, who is going to be empathetic about expressions of doubt and who is going to silently and permanently pass judgement upon it. Saying that stuff to peers has little risk especially if the peers know each other. But aetherson has a supervisor role here and he is at least being honest to us that such a remark will condition his future opinion of the blabber-mouth. That's perhaps one of the things that takes people some time to learn after leaving school-- what you say can hurt you, asking the wrong questions can damage your career, and, your boss is not your friend.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- harlanji 9y ago
  All your end advice is true, and I recognize the sentiment of "you can never know". Indeed, a date recently asked me if I could read her mind, as happens often, but this time I said I can read her body so basically yes, I can read her mind. I can do this in interviews as well, which is a curse in a slimy rotten marketplace. It's pretty easy to see the next question to ask somebody and corner them if you want. Lack of mental clarity or lack of social exposure or programming can hinder one.
- scarface74 9y ago
  Your boss is not your friend, but your boss can be your mentor. I've had to form a level of trust with my boss because I really needed his advice as a first time tech lead. I knew the technology I was implementing pretty well but now knowing how to approach higher ups and people in other departments is just as important.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    And adding on, I try to avoid it, but sometimes you have to tell your boss personal stuff. When I was looking for a house, I had all sorts of short notice appointments. If I didn't let him know, the first thought is that I was interviewing. Also, I have "cold induced asthma". Whenever I catch a cold, my asthma flairs up and I'm heavily medicated. I had to explain why I spent so much time working from home.
throwaway0255 9y ago
> Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle. This is like shaking your fist at gravity. Everyone's in competition all the time whether they like it or not, that's the universe we live in. Given a choice, you're going to advance the person who's glad they got into computer science, all things being equal. Even worse than regretting her degree in computer science is the poor judgment she displayed by saying that in front of a manager. The statement is clearly not in her own best interest, it's fairly obvious, and she completely failed to recognize that. It's not a huge deal by any means, but objectively, it's a negative indication. Why should managers ignore that? Those are relevant data points she just revealed.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  Yeah, I've heard the recruiting pitch. I don't buy it. The universe is vast and indifferent to our puny existence. The belief in the necessity of hostile, anti-vulnerability, winner take all, exploitative competition is a human thing, not a universal truth.
  - throwaway0255 9y ago
    I don't know about necessity, necessary or unnecessary. It's just a thing that is. I'm not saying be hostile. Granting advancement to somebody who exposed weakness over someone who didn't, if all other things are equal, would be even more of an act of hostility. That's not fair to the other person at all. And I'm not saying don't expose vulnerability. It's just, work isn't for that. We should all talk to friends and family about that (and I'm sure most of us do). You see this as an imposition on the people exposing their vulnerability, but demanding that managers suspend reason and ignore relevant data in their decision making is an imposition on them, and it's also just a bad way to run a company.
  - greenrd 9y ago
    The person you are replying to didn't say exploitative competition. They just said competition. Indeed, exposing vulnerabilities (of the personal kind, not the security kind) can be imposing in a very inappropriate way. Your colleague is not obliged to be your free therapist. Don't impose emotional labour on them if their body language or response indicates they don't want to be having this conversation. You don't know what issues they are dealing with, which may be much worse than your own. Talk to a friend or family member, or pay for a therapist.
scarface74 9y ago
I spent 9 years at one company- seven years longer than I should have - and by the time I left in 2008, I was way behind where I should have been. I spent from 2009-2016 admitting weaknesses left and right so I could learn from other people. I think that might have kept me from getting ahead at the 3 companies I worked at during that time, but it was worth it for the skills I picked up. Even at my current position as a tech lead, I still have to admit weaknesses. My weaknesses now are around a lot of things that I know are best practices but I haven't had a chance to implement fully before and that I've never been responsible for hiring and recruitment. I have had to be up front about both to ask advice.
- greenrd 9y ago
  As a tech lead, it's actually easier for you to admit weaknesses, since your subordinates will be happy if you arrange things such that their job satisfaction is high, regardless of how much or little technical work you do. For a front-line engineer it's more dangerous, particularly if there is a perception (even if unfair) of a discrepancy between how they presented themselves at interview, and how they are presenting themselves now. Front-line engineers also don't necessarily know if their employer is thinking of firing them - they therefore are best advised to play it safe with regards to any little thing that their employer could pick up on as a straw that breaks the camel's back. Better safe than sorry. But yes, there are times when we all need to ask for help, and even here, there are better and worse ways to do it. Again, for a team lead to express vulnerability can be positive in the right circumstances - because it can allow a junior (or indeed a senior) to puff up their chest with pride as they may then be able to help out their boss, show off their knowledge and look really good - and it can help to bond with the team. In contrast, showing vulnerability as a subordinate, to the wrong manager, can just give them an excuse to fire you. That's happened to me twice - I've learned my lesson.
  - scarface74 9y ago
    The only times I've been closed to getting fired weren't because of technical skills. I don't believe I've ever come up against a technical challenge that I couldn't solve by putting enough man hours into it. But, the one thing that I've gotten a couple of "improvement plans" about were surrounding my lack of emotional intelligence and attitude. Those nine years between 2008-2016 were just as much about improving my emotional intelligence as learning technical skills. I look back in horror about some of things I did during the first 12 years of my career. I can very much see where the article is coming from.
sturgill 9y ago
Having a trusted group of advisors is strongly recommended. Confusing everyone in your office as your professional advisor is ill advised. Find people that have had success in fields that interest you and cultivate relationships with them. And explicitly ask, "Would you be willing to be one of my professional advisors?" You'll want 3-5 of these. From time-to-time, grab lunch or coffee. And ask the advantages of an MBA or whatever certification. Ask "does job X seem like a good next move for me given my career goals?" Then pick up the tab. But never, ever confuse lunch at your company's cafeteria as the time or place to raise professional doubts. Absolute confidence at work; and raise your personal insecurities in private with people you can trust and that are expecting that kind of conversation. Here's my current advisor group: My mom and dad. I'm mid-30's with three kids of my own. My own parents are a great sounding board for "how is my work/life balance? Am I focused too much on cash at the expense of time with my kids? Will another relocation be too much to ask of my children?" They don't know much about what I do and can't help me build business models, but they raised 5 kids and can effectively call out my B.S. The dean when I got an MBA. We did a lot of work together while I was at school. He's an incredibly connected individual and is someone I trust to guide me with business ethics. In a failed startup I had some private issues. I met the dean for coffee and he gave me some of the best advice I've ever received: "keep your chin up, your mouth shut, and your integrity intact." Basically "That sucks, move on." He's a "big picture" / "career arc" kind of guy who could help me get a conversation with just about anyone I want. And he's a wonderful person I consider a good friend. A previous co-worker who is a marketing executive. We hit it off at work. I'm passionate about quantitative marketing. He was more brand oriented. Enough overlap where we had shared interests; different enough we weren't direct competitors at the office. He's been around and knows the pitfalls of business. Sample advice: "ignore all 'Growth hacker' job listings. They're brutal jobs and the first to get axed when numbers are missed. You'll be held accountable for the things you are least likely to be able to control." None of these conversations happen casually. They are planned discussions with people I have a close relationship. And none of them work in my org (I asked my old coworker to be an advisor _after_ he left). Be purposeful in what you say to whom.

foobarchu 9y ago

I don't think the point was that she shouldn't have shared that information with peers at all, it's that she needs to be more careful about exactly who she's telling it to. OP may easily be in a position later of promoting her to another position. Even if she is confident in her choices by that point, OP will still have that information tucked in their mind, and will (maybe unconciously) utilize it in their decisions. Nobody is yelling at her or beating her down about this, but she needs to be more discrete in who she shares what information with. Even if you see someone as a friend, friends aren't all equally deserving of your hopes and fears. I think a good analogy is group projects in school. If you had a classmate who you were good friends with, and they had been sharing with you how much they were struggling and that they were considering dropping the class...wouldn't you factor that information in when choosing partners for a group project? You might decide that "no, I like them too much", and go with them, but it's going to be a decision you have to make because you already possess the information.

rainbowmverse 9y ago
A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt.
- harlanji 9y ago
  The one grayed down comment. I agree whole heartedly.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    It's by a shadowbanned account. You'd need to have showdead on to see it.
- greenrd 9y ago
  The reality of group projects is that all too often, one person ends up doing most of the real work. Group projects don't need to be more infantilising, they need to be more "shape up or ship out!"
  - watwut 9y ago
    It is not infantilizing to accept expression of doubt or some kind of negative feeling. People have opinions and feelings and sometimes express them. Getting scared of that and yelling "shape up or ship out" is as immature as stopping the work altogether because of it. Also, in my experience, the people who express such feelings are the ones who tend to be willing to do a lot of work and also the boring work needed to finish the thing. The one person doing all the work in group project imo, is because group projects are quite dumb exercises. It has little to do how real cooperation in just a little competently managed work works and keeps more hardworking people hostage to lazy ones. Regardless of whether it is lazy or hardworking who is more open about his state of mind. It has nothing to do with infantilization - many adults in same situation will slack, because that is how incentives are lined up.
- 111_1_111 9y ago
  > A good group project with people who are mature enough to handle someone's expression of vulnerability without judgement might be what keeps them in the class. Yeah, and a bad group project with somebody who is dumb enough to express their vulnerability to me might be what drags my grade from an A to a B. > If you reject someone over an expression of doubt, it was never about the doubt. I hope you realize that this is meaningless nonsense.

crispyambulance 9y ago

The thing is you can never _really_ know, in advance, who is going to be empathetic about expressions of doubt and who is going to silently and permanently pass judgement upon it. Saying that stuff to peers has little risk especially if the peers know each other. But aetherson has a supervisor role here and he is at least being honest to us that such a remark will condition his future opinion of the blabber-mouth. That's perhaps one of the things that takes people some time to learn after leaving school-- what you say can hurt you, asking the wrong questions can damage your career, and, your boss is not your friend.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
harlanji 9y ago
All your end advice is true, and I recognize the sentiment of "you can never know". Indeed, a date recently asked me if I could read her mind, as happens often, but this time I said I can read her body so basically yes, I can read her mind. I can do this in interviews as well, which is a curse in a slimy rotten marketplace. It's pretty easy to see the next question to ask somebody and corner them if you want. Lack of mental clarity or lack of social exposure or programming can hinder one.
scarface74 9y ago
Your boss is not your friend, but your boss can be your mentor. I've had to form a level of trust with my boss because I really needed his advice as a first time tech lead. I knew the technology I was implementing pretty well but now knowing how to approach higher ups and people in other departments is just as important.
- scarface74 9y ago
  And adding on, I try to avoid it, but sometimes you have to tell your boss personal stuff. When I was looking for a house, I had all sorts of short notice appointments. If I didn't let him know, the first thought is that I was interviewing. Also, I have "cold induced asthma". Whenever I catch a cold, my asthma flairs up and I'm heavily medicated. I had to explain why I spent so much time working from home.

throwaway0255 9y ago

> Just because we're yelled and beaten down for every expression of vulnerability growing up doesn't mean we have to perpetuate it into adulthood. Stop the cycle. This is like shaking your fist at gravity. Everyone's in competition all the time whether they like it or not, that's the universe we live in. Given a choice, you're going to advance the person who's glad they got into computer science, all things being equal. Even worse than regretting her degree in computer science is the poor judgment she displayed by saying that in front of a manager. The statement is clearly not in her own best interest, it's fairly obvious, and she completely failed to recognize that. It's not a huge deal by any means, but objectively, it's a negative indication. Why should managers ignore that? Those are relevant data points she just revealed.

rainbowmverse 9y ago
Yeah, I've heard the recruiting pitch. I don't buy it. The universe is vast and indifferent to our puny existence. The belief in the necessity of hostile, anti-vulnerability, winner take all, exploitative competition is a human thing, not a universal truth.
- throwaway0255 9y ago
  I don't know about necessity, necessary or unnecessary. It's just a thing that is. I'm not saying be hostile. Granting advancement to somebody who exposed weakness over someone who didn't, if all other things are equal, would be even more of an act of hostility. That's not fair to the other person at all. And I'm not saying don't expose vulnerability. It's just, work isn't for that. We should all talk to friends and family about that (and I'm sure most of us do). You see this as an imposition on the people exposing their vulnerability, but demanding that managers suspend reason and ignore relevant data in their decision making is an imposition on them, and it's also just a bad way to run a company.
- greenrd 9y ago
  The person you are replying to didn't say exploitative competition. They just said competition. Indeed, exposing vulnerabilities (of the personal kind, not the security kind) can be imposing in a very inappropriate way. Your colleague is not obliged to be your free therapist. Don't impose emotional labour on them if their body language or response indicates they don't want to be having this conversation. You don't know what issues they are dealing with, which may be much worse than your own. Talk to a friend or family member, or pay for a therapist.

scarface74 9y ago

I spent 9 years at one company- seven years longer than I should have - and by the time I left in 2008, I was way behind where I should have been. I spent from 2009-2016 admitting weaknesses left and right so I could learn from other people. I think that might have kept me from getting ahead at the 3 companies I worked at during that time, but it was worth it for the skills I picked up. Even at my current position as a tech lead, I still have to admit weaknesses. My weaknesses now are around a lot of things that I know are best practices but I haven't had a chance to implement fully before and that I've never been responsible for hiring and recruitment. I have had to be up front about both to ask advice.

greenrd 9y ago
As a tech lead, it's actually easier for you to admit weaknesses, since your subordinates will be happy if you arrange things such that their job satisfaction is high, regardless of how much or little technical work you do. For a front-line engineer it's more dangerous, particularly if there is a perception (even if unfair) of a discrepancy between how they presented themselves at interview, and how they are presenting themselves now. Front-line engineers also don't necessarily know if their employer is thinking of firing them - they therefore are best advised to play it safe with regards to any little thing that their employer could pick up on as a straw that breaks the camel's back. Better safe than sorry. But yes, there are times when we all need to ask for help, and even here, there are better and worse ways to do it. Again, for a team lead to express vulnerability can be positive in the right circumstances - because it can allow a junior (or indeed a senior) to puff up their chest with pride as they may then be able to help out their boss, show off their knowledge and look really good - and it can help to bond with the team. In contrast, showing vulnerability as a subordinate, to the wrong manager, can just give them an excuse to fire you. That's happened to me twice - I've learned my lesson.
- scarface74 9y ago
  The only times I've been closed to getting fired weren't because of technical skills. I don't believe I've ever come up against a technical challenge that I couldn't solve by putting enough man hours into it. But, the one thing that I've gotten a couple of "improvement plans" about were surrounding my lack of emotional intelligence and attitude. Those nine years between 2008-2016 were just as much about improving my emotional intelligence as learning technical skills. I look back in horror about some of things I did during the first 12 years of my career. I can very much see where the article is coming from.

sturgill 9y ago

Having a trusted group of advisors is strongly recommended. Confusing everyone in your office as your professional advisor is ill advised. Find people that have had success in fields that interest you and cultivate relationships with them. And explicitly ask, "Would you be willing to be one of my professional advisors?" You'll want 3-5 of these. From time-to-time, grab lunch or coffee. And ask the advantages of an MBA or whatever certification. Ask "does job X seem like a good next move for me given my career goals?" Then pick up the tab. But never, ever confuse lunch at your company's cafeteria as the time or place to raise professional doubts. Absolute confidence at work; and raise your personal insecurities in private with people you can trust and that are expecting that kind of conversation. Here's my current advisor group: My mom and dad. I'm mid-30's with three kids of my own. My own parents are a great sounding board for "how is my work/life balance? Am I focused too much on cash at the expense of time with my kids? Will another relocation be too much to ask of my children?" They don't know much about what I do and can't help me build business models, but they raised 5 kids and can effectively call out my B.S. The dean when I got an MBA. We did a lot of work together while I was at school. He's an incredibly connected individual and is someone I trust to guide me with business ethics. In a failed startup I had some private issues. I met the dean for coffee and he gave me some of the best advice I've ever received: "keep your chin up, your mouth shut, and your integrity intact." Basically "That sucks, move on." He's a "big picture" / "career arc" kind of guy who could help me get a conversation with just about anyone I want. And he's a wonderful person I consider a good friend. A previous co-worker who is a marketing executive. We hit it off at work. I'm passionate about quantitative marketing. He was more brand oriented. Enough overlap where we had shared interests; different enough we weren't direct competitors at the office. He's been around and knows the pitfalls of business. Sample advice: "ignore all 'Growth hacker' job listings. They're brutal jobs and the first to get axed when numbers are missed. You'll be held accountable for the things you are least likely to be able to control." None of these conversations happen casually. They are planned discussions with people I have a close relationship. And none of them work in my org (I asked my old coworker to be an advisor _after_ he left). Be purposeful in what you say to whom.