5 ms·

What I wonder is, long term, how does Oracle's willingness to pursue lawsuits like this affect the adoption of other JVM languages like Scala, Clojure, Jython,

by whyenot 16y ago

What I wonder is, long term, how does Oracle's willingness to pursue lawsuits like this affect the adoption of other JVM languages like Scala, Clojure, Jython, etc. If you were contemplating starting a new project using Clojure, for instance, would this lawsuit give you pause? I think I would worry about it, at least a little.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
cemerick 16y ago
Why, exactly? Will the impact (if any) on android change those languages? I can't see how. Those fretting about "Oracle's stewardship of Java" all need to take a breath. Honestly, things can't be worse than they were under Sun -- except perhaps in the eyes of those that make platform decisions based on the patent-management policies of multinational corporations. If FUD or "morale" or "community" is the chief concern for others, then they've forgotten the lessons of Java's history: i.e. the shit keeps hitting the fan in different ways, yet code running on JVMs is everywhere, and that'll continue to be the case for decades. Anyway, I honestly can't see how this has any bearing on "userspace" as it were. If I were a VM vendor, I'd be very concerned, but application and library developers would seem to be entirely unaffected by the suit.
- DougBTX 16y ago
  > Why, exactly? Imagine you are developing a new language to run on the JVM, and it turns out that to get a 10x performance improvement, it would be really great to have this new bytecode instruction added to the JVM. To get it into every JVM, you would have to go through Oracle anyway, so nothing changes there. But if you wanted to distribute your own variation, a hypothetical openJVM+, Oracle is saying that they may well go after you with patent suits. Good for people happy with the current JVM, looking for stability. Bad for people wanting to bring innovations to the JVM without explicit consent from Oracle.
  - cemerick 16y ago
    Bollocks. People in the alternative JVM language space have been hankering for all sorts of VM changes/additions for years, including TCO, fixnums, method handles, continuations, etc etc etc. How many openJVM+ implementations have ever been implemented, nevermind used out in the world? None, AFAIK -- the progress, as it is, happens in the MLVM, which is under the umbrella of OpenJDK. So as I said, the exceptions to this might be highly VM vendors, such as Azul, GAE, and various people that have worked on (maybe deployed, I don't know?) full-stack Java operating systems and/or Java-on-a-chip (for embedded applications I suppose). Anyone developing applications, libraries, et al. are entirely unaffected AFAICT.
Rayne 16y ago
People are really just being silly about this stuff. They aren't suing because they USED Java or the JVM. I don't see how this could have any effect on these languages.
- vetinari 16y ago
  Yes, they are. Java is _used_ in Android SDK only. You use java-based tools to develop and build Android applications and then convert them into Dalvik applications. On devices, there is only Dalvik, no Java.
  - Rayne 16y ago
    I think you've missed my point. They are not suing simply because Java was used to create an application. I don't plan on creating a new, incompatible JVM any time soon, so how does this effect me in any way? I'm a Clojure application and web developer, not a JVM developer.
    - vetinari 16y ago
      No, not at all. The first thing is to realize, that Android, the platform, does not use Java at all. It uses Dalvik, proprietary virtual machine, just like Microsoft's .net or random Smalltalk. There is no JVM in sight. What uses Java is Android SDK, for their tools. Clojure is Java application the same way, as Android SDK tools are.

by whyenot 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

cemerick 16y ago

Why, exactly? Will the impact (if any) on android change those languages? I can't see how. Those fretting about "Oracle's stewardship of Java" all need to take a breath. Honestly, things can't be worse than they were under Sun -- except perhaps in the eyes of those that make platform decisions based on the patent-management policies of multinational corporations. If FUD or "morale" or "community" is the chief concern for others, then they've forgotten the lessons of Java's history: i.e. the shit keeps hitting the fan in different ways, yet code running on JVMs is everywhere, and that'll continue to be the case for decades. Anyway, I honestly can't see how this has any bearing on "userspace" as it were. If I were a VM vendor, I'd be very concerned, but application and library developers would seem to be entirely unaffected by the suit.

DougBTX 16y ago
> Why, exactly? Imagine you are developing a new language to run on the JVM, and it turns out that to get a 10x performance improvement, it would be really great to have this new bytecode instruction added to the JVM. To get it into every JVM, you would have to go through Oracle anyway, so nothing changes there. But if you wanted to distribute your own variation, a hypothetical openJVM+, Oracle is saying that they may well go after you with patent suits. Good for people happy with the current JVM, looking for stability. Bad for people wanting to bring innovations to the JVM without explicit consent from Oracle.
- cemerick 16y ago
  Bollocks. People in the alternative JVM language space have been hankering for all sorts of VM changes/additions for years, including TCO, fixnums, method handles, continuations, etc etc etc. How many openJVM+ implementations have ever been implemented, nevermind used out in the world? None, AFAIK -- the progress, as it is, happens in the MLVM, which is under the umbrella of OpenJDK. So as I said, the exceptions to this might be highly VM vendors, such as Azul, GAE, and various people that have worked on (maybe deployed, I don't know?) full-stack Java operating systems and/or Java-on-a-chip (for embedded applications I suppose). Anyone developing applications, libraries, et al. are entirely unaffected AFAICT.

Rayne 16y ago

People are really just being silly about this stuff. They aren't suing because they USED Java or the JVM. I don't see how this could have any effect on these languages.

vetinari 16y ago
Yes, they are. Java is _used_ in Android SDK only. You use java-based tools to develop and build Android applications and then convert them into Dalvik applications. On devices, there is only Dalvik, no Java.
- Rayne 16y ago
  I think you've missed my point. They are not suing simply because Java was used to create an application. I don't plan on creating a new, incompatible JVM any time soon, so how does this effect me in any way? I'm a Clojure application and web developer, not a JVM developer.
  - vetinari 16y ago
    No, not at all. The first thing is to realize, that Android, the platform, does not use Java at all. It uses Dalvik, proprietary virtual machine, just like Microsoft's .net or random Smalltalk. There is no JVM in sight. What uses Java is Android SDK, for their tools. Clojure is Java application the same way, as Android SDK tools are.