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This is effective nonsense. Based on my personal experience, effective engineers I know do not follow a formula like this. This looks like a list of how to be

This is effective nonsense. Based on my personal experience, effective engineers I know do not follow a formula like this. This looks like a list of how to be teacher’s pet. A superficial need to be praised by others as effective only takes to “mediocre”.

eitland 9y ago
Also it comes off as a way to build a career at the companys expense.
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  You're forgetting the fact that the company is also building it's "career" off your's too. Don't believe me? Any invention that you have created at your workplace (patents etc.) is always held by your company, not you.
  - eitland 9y ago
    That's the deal though isn't it? They pay me real money - I do real work for them.
    - ashwinaj 9y ago
      So you're okay with the fact that they are kinda-sorta exploiting you (by not including you as a co-patent holder) but have reservations on employees utilizing company resources to further their career? That seems like a really raw deal to me. You might argue that you are "paid" to do this; not really, you can just coast on 9-5 and draw the same (or in the same ballpark) paycheck as someone who is busting his behind to invent something. Also when there is downsizing you might think that contributions is the only thing that matters, but it is demonstrably not (I'm speaking about regular companies not a small startup).
    - barrkel 9y ago
      You expend labour; they build capital. The capital you build produces returns long into the future, but you don't own any of that future income stream. Sooner or later, your sharpness and skills will decline, and your labour will be relatively worthless. The capital you helped build will continue to be valuable (presuming you did a good job). It's a poor deal if you're in a competitive market where there's another schmuck willing to do your job for just as cheap as you do it. But if you have pricing power, you'd be a complete fool not to either charge substantially more, or demand some ownership.
- goialoq 9y ago
  Which parts hurt the company?
dudul 9y ago
What do effective engineers do then? Based on your experience, what practices do they implement?
- yanilkr 9y ago
  Please read more research i did here about this content. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 You decide if there is any merit to the advice given.
tw1010 9y ago
There are good ways and bad ways to interpret the book. Just because good engineers have historically not lived their lives according to these particular buzzwords, does not mean they haven't implicitly incorperated similar, analogous, strategies. I would be surprised if Linus Torvalds and Peter Norvig and the like didn't use concepts like prioritization, investing in tools, and some similar idea (though not necessarily expressed in that way) to the 80/20 rule. Why should it matter from which culture productivity buzzwords originate from?
brucephillips 9y ago
Perhaps rather than spew vacuous insults, you could describe specifically how effective engineers differ from the descriptions in this post.
- yanilkr 9y ago
  You may want to read the due diligence I did about this topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 One other quality of effective engineers is not fall for bullshit and have a scientific mindset of inquiry.
plandis 9y ago
What do effective engineers do then?
- yanilkr 9y ago
  read the background verification i did for the same https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746
yanilkr 9y ago
I will try to elaborate without trying to insult anyone. It might be harsh but I am sure the author can handle it. First of all look at this sales copy of the book. https://www.effectiveengineer.com/book https://www.effectiveengineer.com/book It looks like a weight loss e-book product designed to trick ambitious people into impulse buying. It tries to build credibility by name dropping "google", "facebook", "insert big company here" every other paragraph. Then there are testimonials about how great the advice is from "LeaderLeaderLeader" enterprise hierarchy pattern i.e people with big titles from popular silicon valley companies. Everything in that page is designed and optimized to make you buy the package. For a price of 250$ you too can know the secrets of effective Engineers. To sell this content first create and exploit an insecurity in jr.Engineers or fresh job seekers in technology by saying they are not an effective engineer unless they buy this book/package and read the content and then they too will be part of the club and work at a big name brand company. Some people in our work places are exceptionally good at social engineering and not so much in actual engineering. The sales copy co-opted the "engineering" discipline to sell some curated content. This looks much similar to team/company "politics". I do not think people in "effective engineering" business do this. This is certainly what people in content business do. Now compare that to some other book for a contrast. https://basecamp.com/books/getting-real https://basecamp.com/books/getting-real Engineering is just like any other skill for e.g., like playing chess or piano or swimming etc. You get better by doing it many times and failing often. To be good at engineering involves many factors like genetics, discipline, irrational love and passion for a particular domain, patience, exposure to better ideas and better people. Even you are good at engineering, to be effective at a company/market, you need to know the right people and have right social and financial skills to get name and recognition. Some how, effective engineering has become synonymous with what happens at big name company teams which I think is very wrong. If you look at the real world, once companies reach a bigger size, they stop doing effective anything. They just buy other small companies which spend more time on making effective products. This content seems to be analogous to "founders at work" but a better title would have been "engineers at the enterprise".
- brucephillips 9y ago
  > To sell this content first create and exploit an insecurity in jr.Engineers or fresh job seekers in technology by saying they are not an effective engineer unless they buy this book/package Where are you reading this?
sidcool 9y ago
Care to suggest better ways?
- yanilkr 9y ago
  I did a background check and things do not add up for me. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746

eitland 9y ago

Also it comes off as a way to build a career at the companys expense.

ashwinaj 9y ago
You're forgetting the fact that the company is also building it's "career" off your's too. Don't believe me? Any invention that you have created at your workplace (patents etc.) is always held by your company, not you.
- eitland 9y ago
  That's the deal though isn't it? They pay me real money - I do real work for them.
  - ashwinaj 9y ago
    So you're okay with the fact that they are kinda-sorta exploiting you (by not including you as a co-patent holder) but have reservations on employees utilizing company resources to further their career? That seems like a really raw deal to me. You might argue that you are "paid" to do this; not really, you can just coast on 9-5 and draw the same (or in the same ballpark) paycheck as someone who is busting his behind to invent something. Also when there is downsizing you might think that contributions is the only thing that matters, but it is demonstrably not (I'm speaking about regular companies not a small startup).
  - barrkel 9y ago
    You expend labour; they build capital. The capital you build produces returns long into the future, but you don't own any of that future income stream. Sooner or later, your sharpness and skills will decline, and your labour will be relatively worthless. The capital you helped build will continue to be valuable (presuming you did a good job). It's a poor deal if you're in a competitive market where there's another schmuck willing to do your job for just as cheap as you do it. But if you have pricing power, you'd be a complete fool not to either charge substantially more, or demand some ownership.
goialoq 9y ago
Which parts hurt the company?

dudul 9y ago

What do effective engineers do then? Based on your experience, what practices do they implement?

yanilkr 9y ago
Please read more research i did here about this content. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 You decide if there is any merit to the advice given.

tw1010 9y ago

There are good ways and bad ways to interpret the book. Just because good engineers have historically not lived their lives according to these particular buzzwords, does not mean they haven't implicitly incorperated similar, analogous, strategies. I would be surprised if Linus Torvalds and Peter Norvig and the like didn't use concepts like prioritization, investing in tools, and some similar idea (though not necessarily expressed in that way) to the 80/20 rule. Why should it matter from which culture productivity buzzwords originate from?

brucephillips 9y ago

Perhaps rather than spew vacuous insults, you could describe specifically how effective engineers differ from the descriptions in this post.

yanilkr 9y ago
You may want to read the due diligence I did about this topic. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 One other quality of effective engineers is not fall for bullshit and have a scientific mindset of inquiry.

plandis 9y ago

What do effective engineers do then?

yanilkr 9y ago
read the background verification i did for the same https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746

yanilkr 9y ago

I will try to elaborate without trying to insult anyone. It might be harsh but I am sure the author can handle it. First of all look at this sales copy of the book. https://www.effectiveengineer.com/book https://www.effectiveengineer.com/book It looks like a weight loss e-book product designed to trick ambitious people into impulse buying. It tries to build credibility by name dropping "google", "facebook", "insert big company here" every other paragraph. Then there are testimonials about how great the advice is from "LeaderLeaderLeader" enterprise hierarchy pattern i.e people with big titles from popular silicon valley companies. Everything in that page is designed and optimized to make you buy the package. For a price of 250$ you too can know the secrets of effective Engineers. To sell this content first create and exploit an insecurity in jr.Engineers or fresh job seekers in technology by saying they are not an effective engineer unless they buy this book/package and read the content and then they too will be part of the club and work at a big name brand company. Some people in our work places are exceptionally good at social engineering and not so much in actual engineering. The sales copy co-opted the "engineering" discipline to sell some curated content. This looks much similar to team/company "politics". I do not think people in "effective engineering" business do this. This is certainly what people in content business do. Now compare that to some other book for a contrast. https://basecamp.com/books/getting-real https://basecamp.com/books/getting-real Engineering is just like any other skill for e.g., like playing chess or piano or swimming etc. You get better by doing it many times and failing often. To be good at engineering involves many factors like genetics, discipline, irrational love and passion for a particular domain, patience, exposure to better ideas and better people. Even you are good at engineering, to be effective at a company/market, you need to know the right people and have right social and financial skills to get name and recognition. Some how, effective engineering has become synonymous with what happens at big name company teams which I think is very wrong. If you look at the real world, once companies reach a bigger size, they stop doing effective anything. They just buy other small companies which spend more time on making effective products. This content seems to be analogous to "founders at work" but a better title would have been "engineers at the enterprise".

brucephillips 9y ago
> To sell this content first create and exploit an insecurity in jr.Engineers or fresh job seekers in technology by saying they are not an effective engineer unless they buy this book/package Where are you reading this?

sidcool 9y ago

Care to suggest better ways?

yanilkr 9y ago
I did a background check and things do not add up for me. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16037746