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> If this was attractive to tech folks, the hiring tests would include more business problem oriented questions than fizzing and buzzing And yet business peopl

by saguro 9y ago

> If this was attractive to tech folks, the hiring tests would include more business problem oriented questions than fizzing and buzzing And yet business people don't get any tests. No one else on the entire planet gets tests for almost every role opportunity they want to explore. So why do developers have to? Actually, I can answer that. The answer is because the overwhelming majority of a modern company's productivity is up to the performance of the developers. The business guys get away with under-performing because their underprformance is not a significant factor on the bottom line. The commonplace testing of developers has nothing to do with ratios of good to bad developers, or the relative ease of assessing developer skill compared to other professions. It has everything to do with the fact that developers drive the lions share of modern business value so they've been singled out for shitty treatment with testing and kaggle competitions and similar garbage. I really hope to see a software engineering union rise in the next few years which cracks down on this and empowers developers to negotiate relative to their actual value in modern business. People like you aren't needed in the world of high tech. Your role is redundant.

walshemj 9y ago
I could say the same for HR at BT we had one HR person come to present to our team meting and they did not know that the developers in BT are M&P Grades and not CWU blue collar grades. Though I would agree that asking we have a business problem how would you solve or improve on what we do now is a much better q to ask.
ultraluminous 9y ago
The funny thing is that for all your grandstanding about developer importance and productivity and what not, the only point you successfully manage to get across is that you are an obnoxious child that no one would wish to work with.
j45 9y ago
I'm a developer. Possibly a little more experienced from the level of ad hominem negativity you're comfortable directing at others to feel better about one's self. A software developers union would be interesting. Accreditation from testing to be in a professional body will still have people who can hide among the work of others, but much less so. Also a challenge for a tech union would be the rapid changing nature of software development compared to other unionized industries to maintain a baseline. Not the first time it's been thought about. Non tech positions are even harder to test for at hiring. Especially since so many hr, accounting jobs themselves are requiring increased digital transformation skills of knowing how to select and implement business systems. Tech hiring interviews were designed largely by tech people. The real hilarious part is seeing a non tech hr person try to buy a hr software system and implement it. Being the subject matter expert no longer means an ability implement and roll out programs as it used to - its a growing issue that requires people who can understand and work with detail. Working with details requires an ability to care about the plight of others, organizations and their processes to prove to lower the suffering of people at the hands of their employment environments.
- saguro 9y ago
  > I'm a developer. Possibly a little more experienced from the level of ad hominem negativity Perhaps if you were actually more experienced, you wouldn't stoop to the ultimate irony of dismissing every point I made by attacking my tone. I stand by what I said, people like you are redundant in modern tech. I think when you tell yourself you're more experienced than me, you're conflating that with you being older and 'wiser' and less confrontational because your testosterone levels have dropped. The tech industry assigns a negative value to age and wisdom, sorry.
  - j45 9y ago
    Email me, happy to compare how much experience we might have and the relevance. Attitude carries one past those with just skill and knowledge. Learning to channel energy instead of raging at others is the ultimate productivity.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Why the UK has several Unions the represent highly technical managerial and professionals and its the employers job to manage the competence or not. Unions don't really want to get involved with being the accrediting body to many conflicts of interests. Your right though that untrained people should not really be doing interviews let alone designing them.

by saguro 9y ago

walshemj 9y ago

I could say the same for HR at BT we had one HR person come to present to our team meting and they did not know that the developers in BT are M&P Grades and not CWU blue collar grades. Though I would agree that asking we have a business problem how would you solve or improve on what we do now is a much better q to ask.

ultraluminous 9y ago

The funny thing is that for all your grandstanding about developer importance and productivity and what not, the only point you successfully manage to get across is that you are an obnoxious child that no one would wish to work with.

j45 9y ago

I'm a developer. Possibly a little more experienced from the level of ad hominem negativity you're comfortable directing at others to feel better about one's self. A software developers union would be interesting. Accreditation from testing to be in a professional body will still have people who can hide among the work of others, but much less so. Also a challenge for a tech union would be the rapid changing nature of software development compared to other unionized industries to maintain a baseline. Not the first time it's been thought about. Non tech positions are even harder to test for at hiring. Especially since so many hr, accounting jobs themselves are requiring increased digital transformation skills of knowing how to select and implement business systems. Tech hiring interviews were designed largely by tech people. The real hilarious part is seeing a non tech hr person try to buy a hr software system and implement it. Being the subject matter expert no longer means an ability implement and roll out programs as it used to - its a growing issue that requires people who can understand and work with detail. Working with details requires an ability to care about the plight of others, organizations and their processes to prove to lower the suffering of people at the hands of their employment environments.

saguro 9y ago
> I'm a developer. Possibly a little more experienced from the level of ad hominem negativity Perhaps if you were actually more experienced, you wouldn't stoop to the ultimate irony of dismissing every point I made by attacking my tone. I stand by what I said, people like you are redundant in modern tech. I think when you tell yourself you're more experienced than me, you're conflating that with you being older and 'wiser' and less confrontational because your testosterone levels have dropped. The tech industry assigns a negative value to age and wisdom, sorry.
- j45 9y ago
  Email me, happy to compare how much experience we might have and the relevance. Attitude carries one past those with just skill and knowledge. Learning to channel energy instead of raging at others is the ultimate productivity.
walshemj 9y ago
Why the UK has several Unions the represent highly technical managerial and professionals and its the employers job to manage the competence or not. Unions don't really want to get involved with being the accrediting body to many conflicts of interests. Your right though that untrained people should not really be doing interviews let alone designing them.