3 ms·

So what? Windows had been the best selling Operating System for a great many years. It turned into a pile of turd and continued to be the best selling OS.

by jarym 9y ago

valuearb 9y ago
Windows has a monopoly lock on it's customers. They can't run their applications on Linux or MacOS (or they certainly would) so they keep buying it. Users don't have to upgrade to touchbar MBPs, they can a) still buy newly manufactured old style MBPs, or b) not upgrade Yet they've bought the touchbar MBPs in massive volumes. I've heard lots of anecdotal complaints about the touchbars, the keyboards. But I've also heard lots of people love both. I trust the sales numbers a little more than I do anecdotes.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > Users don't have to upgrade to touchbar MBPs They have, if they want anything comparable in performance to the Windows world (even though 16GB RAM tops is just laughable when there are many 64GB laptops in the Windows world, and I guess 128GB is not far around the corner...).
  - valuearb 9y ago
    1) You can still buy a new 2015 MBP with a processer nearly as fast as the 2017 models and 16gb ram. But the vast majority have chosen the touchbar MBP by pure preference. 2) Laptops with more memory don’t have the same transfer speed or power efficiency.
    - jarym 9y ago
      If the MBP without TouchBar that they are currently selling came with the same SSD/CPU options and 32Gb of RAM I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I also know I'm far from alone in that. Argument #2 is parrotting what Apple said. Laptops that get smaller and smaller tend not have the same power efficiency either. Blaming 'more memory' having lower power efficiency is a weak argument when you look at the whole picture. As for transfer speeds, its not true that more memory = lower transfer speed; it depends on a number of other factors (type of memory, clock rate..)
      - tolien 9y ago
        > Argument #2 is parrotting what Apple said Weak argument or no, it is demonstrably true - the first Intel CPU to support LPDDR4 will be Cannon Lake, expected some time next year. The part that's missing is that Apple could have put a bigger battery in a device that was either the same size as the previous model (or anywhere between the thickness of the previous and current models), or offered customers the choice of trading RAM for battery life.
        mschuster91 9y ago
        > or offered customers the choice Apple does not want consumers to have a choice, or at least only the barely tolerable amount of choice. The more they control and have as uniform as possible the more profit they make.
        tolien 9y ago
        Agreed - although the argument that Apple makes the choices for you is laughable when you consider how many SKUs there are for a lot of their devices these days (never mind watch bands!).
        mschuster91 9y ago
        > when you consider how many SKUs there are for a lot of their devices It's always the same OS, with constant nagging if it is not the newest OS. On iOS, no choice between app stores and unless you don't like distributing source around and compiling yourself, no sideloading (to ensure Apple always gets their 30% cut). The hardware choices are not really choices either - it's like packages in cars: no way to get something really adjusted to my specific needs, Apple always thinks they know my needs better than I do.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > 1) You can still buy a new 2015 MBP with a processer nearly as fast as the 2017 models and 16gb ram Speed is not everything. The 2015's Skylake can't do HEVC (and VP9 but I have no idea who outside YT might use VP9). > 2) Laptops with more memory don’t have the same transfer speed or power efficiency. Everything is faster and more power efficient than using swap - in fact, my MBP with nothing more than Chrome, Outlook, Slack and Excel open has 13.12GB of RAM occupied and 16.5GB swap usage. Not to mention all that swapping drastically reduces the life of the flash memory - which is, to make stuff worse, soldered on the motherboard on the 2017 model. Yet another thing that Apple forces down the throats of its users, no way to get data recovery on these when your mobo gets fried.
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        Both YouTube and Netflix use VP9. As videos from these two services constitute the vast majority of my video watching, Apple devices are an exceedingly bad choice for battery life and performance if I want a VP9 encode or for video quality and bandwidth usage if I stick to an Apple-approved codec.
  - nofilter 9y ago
    This reminds me of how OnePlus 5 (Android) sticks 8gb of ram in it, and is as fast as iPhone 7 which has 2gb of ram. Specs don't mean shit if the software that utilizes the hardware is crap.
    - valuearb 9y ago
      This reminds me that the iPhone 7 crushes the OnePlus 5 in benchmarks, while using only a quarter of the ram. https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/44 https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/44 https://browser.geekbench.com/android_devices/383 https://browser.geekbench.com/android_devices/383 and even though OnePlus has been caught cheating benchmark tests more than once! https://www.xda-developers.com/oneplus-5-benchmark-cheating-reviews/ https://www.xda-developers.com/oneplus-5-benchmark-cheating-... https://www.androidauthority.com/oneplus-5-manipulates-benchmarks-781518/ https://www.androidauthority.com/oneplus-5-manipulates-bench...
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        This reminds me that in actual day to day use, a midrange Android phone of the previous generation smokes a top of the line iPhone of the latest generation in time to interactive of productivity apps, and this has been the case for years. Citing CPU benchmarks while talking about RAM shows low understanding of computing. Citing CPU benchmarks when there are better benchmarks for actual productivity shows low understanding of measurement. https://youtu.be/hPhkPXVxISY https://youtu.be/hPhkPXVxISY https://youtu.be/YH3uVWFoHe0 https://youtu.be/YH3uVWFoHe0
- tpush 9y ago
  "They can't run their applications on Linux or MacOS (or they certainly would)" The vast majority of Windows users do not use Windows-only applications. They're using a browser, probably an office suit; both can be done on macOS or even Linux just as well. So no, Windows users are not all clamoring to actually run macOS, only held back by apps that run on Windows but not on macOS. Ironically, the buying-because-of-lock-in argument most describes macOS and especially iOS.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    No, Windows use us predominantly for low paying clerical, customer support, etc. jobs, where hardware cost matters much more. The average sales price of a Mac is 3x that of the sversge Windows PC because Macs are used by professionals, whose time is valuable. Windows users are running what their company tells them to run, usually an internal database application for managing customer interactions.
- bproven 9y ago
  I agree somewhat here - however I'll counter with the fact that Apple has a monopoly lock on Unix desktops that work well. I'm guessing a good part of Mac sales are on the engineering/operations side (devs, sys admins, etc). If there was a real competitor to that (e.g. Linux alternative OS that had a consistent UI, great user experience paired with "just works" hardware" etc) Apple would be in trouble today. Especially with all the hiccups lately... BTW I'm not saying Linux is not an alternative - I run it on my laptop - but getting it tweaked just right, dealing with some of the eccentricities of the desktop environment (gnome I'm looking at you) make it less than grand for a great out of the box experience. However I will say it is worlds better than it was 5, 10 , 15 etc. years ago... Finally, in regards to the touchbar - you really are not given a choice. If you want a powerful box you MUST get touchbar. I wonder what the adoption would be if it was an a la carte option?
TheOtherHobbes 9y ago
The 'what' is the fact that this doesn't give management an incentive to improve. "It's our best selling product ever" easily trumps "...But a lot of people hate the software and aren't really sure about the hardware." Apple won't change until the entire edifice comes crashing down in some horrendous techno-corporate train wreck - possibly one where lives are lost. Cook doesn't have the imagination or the empathy to understand the user POV. As far as he's concerned, as long as the company is making money everything is fine, even if it's bleeding goodwill from every shiny white polycarbonate pore.

So what? Windows had been the best selling Operating System for a great many years. It turned into a pile of turd and continued to be the best selling OS.

by jarym 9y ago

So what? Windows had been the best selling Operating System for a great many years. It turned into a pile of turd and continued to be the best selling OS.

valuearb 9y ago

Windows has a monopoly lock on it's customers. They can't run their applications on Linux or MacOS (or they certainly would) so they keep buying it. Users don't have to upgrade to touchbar MBPs, they can a) still buy newly manufactured old style MBPs, or b) not upgrade Yet they've bought the touchbar MBPs in massive volumes. I've heard lots of anecdotal complaints about the touchbars, the keyboards. But I've also heard lots of people love both. I trust the sales numbers a little more than I do anecdotes.

mschuster91 9y ago
> Users don't have to upgrade to touchbar MBPs They have, if they want anything comparable in performance to the Windows world (even though 16GB RAM tops is just laughable when there are many 64GB laptops in the Windows world, and I guess 128GB is not far around the corner...).
- valuearb 9y ago
  1) You can still buy a new 2015 MBP with a processer nearly as fast as the 2017 models and 16gb ram. But the vast majority have chosen the touchbar MBP by pure preference. 2) Laptops with more memory don’t have the same transfer speed or power efficiency.
  - jarym 9y ago
    If the MBP without TouchBar that they are currently selling came with the same SSD/CPU options and 32Gb of RAM I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I also know I'm far from alone in that. Argument #2 is parrotting what Apple said. Laptops that get smaller and smaller tend not have the same power efficiency either. Blaming 'more memory' having lower power efficiency is a weak argument when you look at the whole picture. As for transfer speeds, its not true that more memory = lower transfer speed; it depends on a number of other factors (type of memory, clock rate..)
    - tolien 9y ago
      > Argument #2 is parrotting what Apple said Weak argument or no, it is demonstrably true - the first Intel CPU to support LPDDR4 will be Cannon Lake, expected some time next year. The part that's missing is that Apple could have put a bigger battery in a device that was either the same size as the previous model (or anywhere between the thickness of the previous and current models), or offered customers the choice of trading RAM for battery life.
      - mschuster91 9y ago
        > or offered customers the choice Apple does not want consumers to have a choice, or at least only the barely tolerable amount of choice. The more they control and have as uniform as possible the more profit they make.
        tolien 9y ago
        Agreed - although the argument that Apple makes the choices for you is laughable when you consider how many SKUs there are for a lot of their devices these days (never mind watch bands!).
        mschuster91 9y ago
        > when you consider how many SKUs there are for a lot of their devices It's always the same OS, with constant nagging if it is not the newest OS. On iOS, no choice between app stores and unless you don't like distributing source around and compiling yourself, no sideloading (to ensure Apple always gets their 30% cut). The hardware choices are not really choices either - it's like packages in cars: no way to get something really adjusted to my specific needs, Apple always thinks they know my needs better than I do.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > 1) You can still buy a new 2015 MBP with a processer nearly as fast as the 2017 models and 16gb ram Speed is not everything. The 2015's Skylake can't do HEVC (and VP9 but I have no idea who outside YT might use VP9). > 2) Laptops with more memory don’t have the same transfer speed or power efficiency. Everything is faster and more power efficient than using swap - in fact, my MBP with nothing more than Chrome, Outlook, Slack and Excel open has 13.12GB of RAM occupied and 16.5GB swap usage. Not to mention all that swapping drastically reduces the life of the flash memory - which is, to make stuff worse, soldered on the motherboard on the 2017 model. Yet another thing that Apple forces down the throats of its users, no way to get data recovery on these when your mobo gets fried.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      Both YouTube and Netflix use VP9. As videos from these two services constitute the vast majority of my video watching, Apple devices are an exceedingly bad choice for battery life and performance if I want a VP9 encode or for video quality and bandwidth usage if I stick to an Apple-approved codec.
- nofilter 9y ago
  This reminds me of how OnePlus 5 (Android) sticks 8gb of ram in it, and is as fast as iPhone 7 which has 2gb of ram. Specs don't mean shit if the software that utilizes the hardware is crap.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    This reminds me that the iPhone 7 crushes the OnePlus 5 in benchmarks, while using only a quarter of the ram. https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/44 https://browser.geekbench.com/ios_devices/44 https://browser.geekbench.com/android_devices/383 https://browser.geekbench.com/android_devices/383 and even though OnePlus has been caught cheating benchmark tests more than once! https://www.xda-developers.com/oneplus-5-benchmark-cheating-reviews/ https://www.xda-developers.com/oneplus-5-benchmark-cheating-... https://www.androidauthority.com/oneplus-5-manipulates-benchmarks-781518/ https://www.androidauthority.com/oneplus-5-manipulates-bench...
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      This reminds me that in actual day to day use, a midrange Android phone of the previous generation smokes a top of the line iPhone of the latest generation in time to interactive of productivity apps, and this has been the case for years. Citing CPU benchmarks while talking about RAM shows low understanding of computing. Citing CPU benchmarks when there are better benchmarks for actual productivity shows low understanding of measurement. https://youtu.be/hPhkPXVxISY https://youtu.be/hPhkPXVxISY https://youtu.be/YH3uVWFoHe0 https://youtu.be/YH3uVWFoHe0
tpush 9y ago
"They can't run their applications on Linux or MacOS (or they certainly would)" The vast majority of Windows users do not use Windows-only applications. They're using a browser, probably an office suit; both can be done on macOS or even Linux just as well. So no, Windows users are not all clamoring to actually run macOS, only held back by apps that run on Windows but not on macOS. Ironically, the buying-because-of-lock-in argument most describes macOS and especially iOS.
- valuearb 9y ago
  No, Windows use us predominantly for low paying clerical, customer support, etc. jobs, where hardware cost matters much more. The average sales price of a Mac is 3x that of the sversge Windows PC because Macs are used by professionals, whose time is valuable. Windows users are running what their company tells them to run, usually an internal database application for managing customer interactions.
bproven 9y ago
I agree somewhat here - however I'll counter with the fact that Apple has a monopoly lock on Unix desktops that work well. I'm guessing a good part of Mac sales are on the engineering/operations side (devs, sys admins, etc). If there was a real competitor to that (e.g. Linux alternative OS that had a consistent UI, great user experience paired with "just works" hardware" etc) Apple would be in trouble today. Especially with all the hiccups lately... BTW I'm not saying Linux is not an alternative - I run it on my laptop - but getting it tweaked just right, dealing with some of the eccentricities of the desktop environment (gnome I'm looking at you) make it less than grand for a great out of the box experience. However I will say it is worlds better than it was 5, 10 , 15 etc. years ago... Finally, in regards to the touchbar - you really are not given a choice. If you want a powerful box you MUST get touchbar. I wonder what the adoption would be if it was an a la carte option?

TheOtherHobbes 9y ago

The 'what' is the fact that this doesn't give management an incentive to improve. "It's our best selling product ever" easily trumps "...But a lot of people hate the software and aren't really sure about the hardware." Apple won't change until the entire edifice comes crashing down in some horrendous techno-corporate train wreck - possibly one where lives are lost. Cook doesn't have the imagination or the empathy to understand the user POV. As far as he's concerned, as long as the company is making money everything is fine, even if it's bleeding goodwill from every shiny white polycarbonate pore.