8 ms·

The estate tax is a bad tax say economists (2001)

32 points by todd8 9y ago

urs2102 9y ago
Is this an argument against the idea of estate tax or the implementation of estate tax in the United States? It reads likes the latter, but the more interesting discussion is regarding the former.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Is this an argument against the idea of estate tax or the implementation of estate tax in the United States? It reads likes the latter, but the more interesting discussion is regarding the former. The general consensus from economists opposes the estate tax. There are a few aspects of its implementation that are particularly problematic, but there's no way to implement an estate tax that doesn't ultimately either (a) lead to these sorts of outcomes, or (b) defeat the entire point of an estate tax in the first place. The short letter might read like it's arguing against the implementation, but if you're familiar with Friedman's work, he shows why estate taxes inherently lead to such undesirable outcomes.
  - zimablue 9y ago
    Can you provide more sources from this? Friedman as far as I understand economics represents an outlier in the free market US school of economics, which I thought was on the retreat in recent years?
    - chimeracoder 9y ago
      > Friedman as far as I understand economics represents an outlier in the free market US school of economics Not really, in the general case, but definitely not on the topic of the estate tax. It's actually quite hard to find rigorous economic analysis and research that defends the estate tax. > I thought [the free market US school of economics] was on the retreat in recent years? That's definitely not true. The current political tide is towards taxation and regulation, but politics have very little to do with what economists agree on (much to their chagrin), and politics is highly cyclical. Also, I'm not sure why "US" is in there - it's not like free-market economics is advocated particularly strongly by US economics compared to their foreign counterparts. Again, politics and consensus among economists are not the same thing.
- taeric 9y ago
  Do you have leads to interesting debates in this? I've mostly only seen yelling and name calling. :( I confess I'm predisposed to keeping it. My mindset doesn't see it as a "death tax" and my contrarian mindset may dislike the idea of repeal from the marketing that went into that label.
taeric 9y ago
I find the claim at the outset almost laughable. That eliminating this tax would see an increase in revenue. With word that for the one family this will save them more than a billion... Yeah, not going to recup in indirect ways. I'm not entirely against dynasties, but it does seem against original US ways. This is definitely a return to policies that can allow a landed gentry.
- walshemj 9y ago
  You know how much Land Washington owned right
  - taeric 9y ago
    I'm curious where you are taking this line.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      The American revolution was run by landowners and the constitution was set up to favor them you don't know this?
      - taeric 9y ago
        You can take it that way. But I can also easily ask how many families from the founding fathers are still in large power? That those with land and power get to use said power is fine. And I never claimed that was against values. That they establish dynasties where the main accomplishment is simply birth to a rich name is where I question things.
        ng12 9y ago
        A lot, actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant
        9y ago
dave_sullivan 9y ago
Scroll down the page and a pop up from the "Family Business Coalition" asks to sign up for their mailing list to help repeal the estate tax. The main points they offer for why are `the estate tax wouldn't raise much money anyway because estate planners have hid the money well` and `it's too hard to enforce`. Doesn't feel like a very nuanced argument.
- tootie 9y ago
  Wasn't the estate tax repealed last week?
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Wasn't the estate tax repealed last week? No, it wasn't.
- tankenmate 9y ago
  It's just a more "educated" version of Bart's favourite saying "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything." [0] And from there they segue into it's too difficult for you to do anything so let's do away it (implying of course that inequality doesn't matter, or matter enough to even take a stance on). Even in its current "broken" practice it stops the worst of inequalities and is revenue positive even if only by a small amount. So the real question to be raised by this letter is, does inequality matter, and if so how much does it matter and more precisely how much does it cost society as a whole. Maybe a yearly wealth tax for all people (natural and legal) of 0.1% would work better? Such a tax in the US would raise between USD40B to USD45B a year. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24
ihsw2 9y ago
The estate tax has been nearly the best way of reducing wealth inequality, second only to the income tax. Like many wealthy individuals off of Hacker News, you more than likely have a Roth IRA account that houses Vanguard mutual funds. John C Bogle (or Jack Bogle), the founder of the Vanguard Group, has consistently and wholeheartedly supported the estate tax as a time-tested means of reducing income inequality. The estate tax has a deep and lengthy history stretching back centuries and (unfortunately) there is a dearth of economic data pointing to it being beneficial to society. It is nonetheless important to emphasize the mutual respect and shared responsibility between the wealthy and non-wealthy. I am by no means a rabid Communist but rather a right-leaning individual that feels strongly about this subject -- there is most definitely precedent for the estate tax's usefulness. The basis of the argument against the estate tax is capital flight and that is just a weak red herring that ignores how immobile most wealth is.
- jimhefferon 9y ago
  > there is a dearth of economic data pointing to it being only beneficial to society. Possibly you meant "wealth" of data?
  - ihsw2 9y ago
    I meant dearth of data, and I have rephrased the paragraph to more clearly convey the intention. While there is a lack of supporting data, the intent is important.
- pico303 9y ago
  Um, just wanted to kindly point out you may not have meant “dearth”, which means, “a scarcity or lack of.” Perhaps “abundance”?
  - walshemj 9y ago
    That is what they ment.
    - 9y ago
jannotti 9y ago
Counter argument. https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21731626-case-taxing-inherited-assets-strong-hated-tax-fair-one https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21731626-case-taxing-... In my opinion, a wealth tax (of which estate tax is one example) is much fairer than an income tax. It is somewhat difficult to levy, but I don't think it's inherently more difficult than measuring income for income tax. It's just that we've spent a century working on income monitoring laws and regulation.
- DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
  I'm unable to find a satisfying definition of "fairness" when it comes to taxation. So for now I try to think about a tax's likely consequences. Honest question: Have you had more luck?
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    I think that an "increase in wealth" tax might be accomplished by taxing income, but deducting all consumer spending. If you earn $70k and spend $60k on rent, utilities, groceries, car repairs, and such, then $10k is taxable. If you earn $40k and spend $40k, essentially living paycheck-to-paycheck, $0 is taxable. If you earn $300k and spend $100k, then $200k is taxable. Purchase of financial instruments and equities are not deductible. If you add to that an exemption of the higher of 5% of income or $20k--so as to not punish people for having a reasonable savings rate--and progressively tax the remainder, that seems pretty "fair" to me (aside from the question of whether any tax can be truly fair). Those who end up paying it are only the ones who can afford to pay it, and they pay in proportion to the extent to which they benefited from the economy. This kind of tax, like any other, also has possible unintended consequences.
  - jannotti 9y ago
    Well, I'm not sure there's any definition that's going to come straight from first principles, but I see a wealth tax as something closer to the way we tax corporations, which is to tax "profit" not "revenue". A personal income tax is more of a revenue tax - even if someone has to spend every dollar they make on kids, health care, rent, etc - we still tax it. We try to fix this a little, by offering deductions that we think make sense. But a wealth tax seems like a more direct way to get at this idea. Levy a tax on the money that people are able to accumulate, not on the money that flows through them.
whowouldathunk 9y ago
The estate tax is justified as a means of reducing the concentration of wealth. However, the truly wealthy and their estate planners avoid the tax. The low yield of the tax is a testament to the ineffectiveness of the tax as a force for reshaping the distribution of wealth. Of course, those recommending the repeal of the estate tax are also probably of the opinion that wealth concentration is not a problem.
bhickey 9y ago
This letter is disingenuous in its argumentation. > the earnings on the assets were taxed year after year Given the stepped up basis upon death, gains accrued during life are never taxed.
- UncleMeat 9y ago
  Yep. The claim that the estate tax is a double tax has been a lie for decades.
Morizero 9y ago
This kind of argument from authority is well parodied by 'Project Steve', IMO: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve
unclenoriega 9y ago
> Spend your money on riotous living – no tax; leave your money to your children – the tax collector gets paid first. What about sales/excise/VAT taxes? This letter seems disingenuous at best.
- pzone 9y ago
  1) We try to encourage saving and investment by collecting VAT instead of taxing capital gains. It's the exact same logic and perfectly consistent. 2) Sales/excise/VAT taxes are still collected whether it's the parent or child who is spending the money. It's symmetrical and doesn't treat one moment in time or one generation differently than another.
- efaref 9y ago
  Your children will still pay those when they spend their money on riotous living.
sandworm101 9y ago
"Death tax" is the best PR campaign ever. This is an inheritance tax. Nobody is taxing death. They are taxing the post-death transfer of wealth. And why complain? You will be dead. If you really want to avoid this tax, give away your vast wealth while still alive. I think we should apply a death tax only to dead people. A 100% tax on post-death income to the estates of the dead. That should speed up the settlement process.
- alehul 9y ago
  Would that not sap people's motivation to work hard and innovate, if they were unable to pass on the benefits to their children? What if they provided a comfortable lifestyle for their children? Would that just be taken away by the government upon the parent's death?
  - KentGeek 9y ago
    Remember that there's a HUGE exemption (the recently passed Donor Relief Act increases it to >$20M) and then it's only a percentage of the amount above that exemption. Your tears are wasted.
    - alehul 9y ago
      I was responding to what I believed was a 100% tax being suggested. Not 'only a percentage'.
  - plandis 9y ago
    This is a tax (in the US at least) of assets over $10MM. Where in the US can that much untaxed money not provide a comfortable living?
    - alehul 9y ago
      I was responding to someone who was suggesting to set the tax at 100%, and I believe they meant all assets. My mistake if they meant otherwise. Nonetheless, with enough kids, that money doesn't go terribly far in the Bay Area.
platz 9y ago
Republicans reject the idea that inequality should be reduced via government policy, because that would mean limiting an individuals freedoms, in service of the group. They reject this idea of "collective fairness" because individuals' rights are much more important than the rights of the collective.
rayiner 9y ago
I think this starts from a backwards premise. The question isn't whether the government should tax inheritances, but whether the government should have a mechanism for people to control property beyond death in the first place: https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_fathers https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax.... Simply having property escheat to the government at death would seem to address the only real, non-moralistic argument raised by the letter: that the estate tax is expensive to administer but doesn't raise much revenue. Of course, people would probably arrange for inter-vivos transfers instead. That would be fine, because such transfers would be taxable income to the recipient (presumably, while we're getting rid of inheritance, we can get rid of what we call "gift income" which is really just regular income). There is precedent for it: > Thomas Paine, like [Adam] Smith and Jefferson, made much of the idea that landed property itself was an affront to the natural right of each generation to the usufruct of the earth, and proposed a "ground rent" — in fact an inheritance tax — on property at the time it is conveyed at death, with the money so collected to be distributed to all citizens at age 21, "as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property." There is a certain libertarian appeal to the idea of property rights ending at death. Maybe there is a "natural right" to property. But surely there is no "natural right" to have a whole apparatus of government dedicated to carrying out the wishes of dead people.
KentGeek 9y ago
Apparently an 11 million dollar exemption (soon to be >20 million) isn't enough to satisfy these oligarchs - (not to mention that above that exemption, we're still only talking a percentage, not the entire fortune).
skywhopper 9y ago
First, this letter is nothing new, this should be marked with "(2001)". As for the content, this letter gives no evidence of its claims, and simply relies on the emotional power of the phrase "death should not be a taxable event". It makes vague, unsupported assertions about the effect of the tax on saving, the cost of enforcing and collecting the tax, the amount collected by the tax, and the prevalence of avoiding the tax. Without actual numbers, though, it's impossible to argue with effectively, which is exactly the point of this rhetorical style. The letter also falls into the narrowly hyper-rational trap of elevating vague economic principles to the level of an absolute moral stance. Just because some policy doesn't meet a completely artificial and oversimplified ideal of economic efficiency doesn't mean it's definitely the wrong policy. The real world is more complicated than an economic model. Ultimately, the most important thing to understand is that this letter was a political statement in support of George W Bush's proposed tax policy in 2001, and not a serious argument. The content is no basis for a reasoned discussion of estate tax policy; it's a propaganda piece.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > As for the content, this letter gives no evidence of its claims You're demanding a lot for a 325-word letter. The author of the letter has written multiple books and papers on this topic in great detail. If you're looking for formal analysis that supports the claims, that's the place to look for it, not this letter.
- philipwhiuk 9y ago
  Given that birth is a tax deductible event there is a sense of harmony in death being a taxable event.
lkrubner 9y ago
The only appropriate death tax is 100%. The goal is not to raise money for the government, the goal is to protect society from oligarchy. Most oligarchs come from wealthy families -- that kind of vast wealth accumulates over the course of generations. So as to allow minor things, such as a house, to pass from parents to children, a low level exemption is reasonable, so the tax does not touch the poor or middle classes. Suppose the first $5 million are tax-free. That is more generous than the current system, and since $5 million is too small an amount to lead to oligarchy, it should not raise any concerns. But beyond $5 million, the appropriate tax should be 100% -- all of the wealth should go back to the society from whence it came. The money raised from such a tax can help give poor children something to start with in life, and thus such a tax allows each child of each generation to start off with roughly equal assets. Thus everyone's accomplishments in life become truly their own, rather than being partly their own and partly their ancestors. The over-reliance on ancestors is a sad state of affairs that holds for many children of the wealthy.
- walshemj 9y ago
  So you be happy for middle class JAMS (just about managing) to accept the state stealing the parents or grand parents home on death.
  - rayiner 9y ago
    It's on thing to say that the government should intervene in the state of nature to protect you from being dispossessed of property you've earned. It's a step further to say that the government should intervene to maintain the standard of living for your children after you can no longer do so by virtue of your death. It's an expansion in the concept of property from a personal right, to something that transcends the person.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      I am fairly sure the Magna Charter which is part of UK common law which US law descends from explicitly has "the right of all free citizens to own and inherit property" The UNHCR also has Article 17(2) (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property
moomin 9y ago
Observe that the letter is dumb from the beginning. “Riotous living: no tax” Now a) have these people never heard of VAT? b) every last bartender, private jet pilot, jazz musician, minder and hooker said wastrel interacts with pays taxes. The truth is, the playboy billionaire is way better for the economy than the upright citizen who sits at home on a pile of money. And... the author knows this. He’s just hoping that cheap moralism will get you to agree with him when actually it’s part of a programme of action where he doesn’t disclose his actual motivations. I said dumb at the start, dishonest would be more accurate.
outsideoflife 9y ago
In the UK there is an equivalent 'inheritance tax'. It is a grossly unfair tax in that it fails to tax the most wealthy. For instance the Grosvenor Estate of the Duke of Westminster recently passed an estimated $59bn company and $16bn in personal wealth to the next generation without paying any inheritance tax at all. This is a achieved by structuring as a trust fund. Yes anyone could start a trust fund, but not everyone can afford the professional fees. [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosvenor_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosvenor_Group [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grosvenor,_7th_Duke_of_Westminster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grosvenor,_7th_Duke_of_We...
hirundo 9y ago
The kinds of businesses that generate enough of an estate to tax are the successful ones. It is very common for such businesses to be sold or liquidated in order to pay the estate tax. It is not easy to find new investments that are equally successful. And the taxed part of the estate is at least as likely to be used to suppress as to encourage economic growth. Also, the reduced incentive to generate wealth for your offspring is not insignificant. So I don't find it to be implausible that eliminating the estate tax could increase tax revenue as successful business continue to create wealth.
- moosey 9y ago
  Then fix it so that it works the same way as many other countries that have estate taxes and want to protect these businesses: The tax is imposed as a debt against the business that is paid off over time. Simple, and successful businesses survive it.
tjpaudio 9y ago
As part of my senior thesis years ago, I did an econometric model/analysis that sought to explain inequality as proxied by difference between mean wages of the bottom 90% of earners vs the top 10%. Times where the amount of estate tax collected per capita was highest highly correlated with the lowest periods of inequality by this measure. Trashing the concept of estate tax on the premise that it is hard to enforce is a bad idea, we should focus our energy on how to better implement it.
- jtbayly 9y ago
  Was it correlation or causation?
trey-jones 9y ago
I am not an expert - I appreciate and (without being an expert) mostly agree with the comments that promote the estate tax as redistribution of wealth. But: It seems to me, as usual, that small business owners (their progeny, that is) are the ones who get screwed by estate tax. Full disclosure: I am not a small business owner, but my father has been for nearly 30 years. I anticipate that my younger brother, who works in the family business, will be more affected by this than I will be, so I consider myself fairly objective here. In our example, my parents are doing fine, but they are by no means a "wealth center". My dad worked hard building the business. It took about 20 years for him to see meaningful profit (it's manufacturing). So the problem as I see it is that my parents (like other small business owners) have the majority of their "wealth" tied up in the business. So the business would need to be dismantled in order to pay the estate tax, which leaves my brother (also working hard) in a tight spot. I'm sure that there are ways around this, and hopefully they are thinking about that. I know that at some point there was a large life insurance policy meant to cover the tax. Sure, it's still redistribution of wealth, but us folks in the middle are the ones that feel it. The top dogs will still pass most of it on.
- ghouse 9y ago
  With a exemption on the first $22 million gifted to your brother by your parents after the surviving spouse dies, I don't think this fits the definition of "small" or "in the middle."
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    Incorporate the business. The parents as the majority owners on the board elect the brother as CEO. The brother appoints siblings to executive positions. The executive salaries include stock grants. The company then trades shares of stock for life annuities of equivalent present value. Essentially, the company starts a pension plan for its owners. As long as they still live, the parents take pension payments, in lieu of dividends or distributions, and the kids gradually build up equity by "working" in their executive positions. The pension benefit appears as a liability on the balance sheet, depressing on paper the basis of the privately-held company stock. When the parents die, their beneficial interest in the form of the life annuity is terminated immediately, without any intervention by an executor or probate judge. That cash flow from the company is now freed up for dividends. The value flies from the present value of the life annuity to the stock price of the company that no longer has to pay it, just as the last breath leaves the body, so fast that the taxman cannot catch it. The kids will realize a capital gain if they ever sell their stock, and will see a rise in dividend income going forward. This increase in wealth would be the same size as a normal inheritance, but does not trigger taxation until they sell the stock, and avoids estate taxes entirely. Income tax is paid quarterly. This is fine. The estate tax earns the government no revenue. It served its purpose by encouraging the elder generations to yield their power over the family businesses before they die.
logfromblammo 9y ago
By far, the best investment Warren Buffett ever made was to let his kids know that they would have to earn their own money. Also, I'm now dying to know how many economists in total have an opinion on estate taxation. They ought to know better than anyone else that sometimes proportions are more significant than absolute values. My own, not-an-economist opinion is that the estate tax is bad, only because it waits until someone has died before making an intervention, then tries to do too much, all at once, and probably too late to make a difference. The letter is correct in that death should not be a taxable event. The tax should probably be invoked every time wealth is transferred from an elder benefactor to a younger, adult recipient, and defined such that all the trusts and offshore accounts and sham business arrangements are transparent to the taxing authority. If your "job" is to be an executive assistant to mommy or daddy, and for that you earn six figures, then the taxing authority should be able to determine the amount paid in excess of the median executive assistant and levy the nepotism tax on that. The idea is not to make money, but to discourage certain behaviors. If the rich people avoid the tax by employing their peers' children instead of their own, that's fine; it gives those kids the opportunity to work for a boss that won't cut them slack just to avoid awkwardness at the holidays. The estate tax isn't just a tax on a parent's hard work and success. It is a tax on spoiled little rich kids, who never learned the value of actual work in the economy, who then go on to own companies and control what people do in them. It's a tax on being disconnected from the conditions experienced by lower classes, wherein it is essential to earn what you get, rather than accept whatever it is you think you deserve as your birthright. I don't begrudge rich people their ability to provide additional opportunities to their children. But when their children turn out to be aristocratic twits, I also feel the desire to teach them the hard lessons that the rest of us likely got much earlier in our lives, to perhaps make them better, more empathetic people. And those are lessons best learned by not having so much money that self-discipline and self-sacrifice are never necessary. I get the feeling that fewer people would be laid off by stack ranking or to shore up quarterly results if those doing it had some inkling of what it means to be the one laid off--the panic, the fear, the depression, the austerity, and maybe even the irrational optimism.
- RhysU 9y ago
  I look forward to you extending your argument to proposing a $0, not $11M, exemption.
nicolashahn 9y ago
I proposed an alternate to the current estate tax here that I think is relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15947957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15947957 (ctrl-f "cap on inheritance") "An exceptionally productive individual can generate billions, but then when he dies the money goes to his heirs which may not have done anything to deserve commanding that much wealth other than having been raised by (and having the genetics of) the exceptionally productive individual, which is a far cry from being exceptionally productive themselves. My thought was to create a cap on inheritance. Enough so that the heirs would be able to live a normal middle class life without working, but not be disgustingly wealthy like the parent. ~$5 million seemed like enough to live off interest for a lifetime. I don't think productivity would be disincentivized too much by this, as the productive individuals still get to use their wealth as long as they're living. It'd probably be pretty difficult to plug all the loopholes but I think it's worth thinking about. We could lighten some other taxes (income, property, whatever) for this increased death tax such that the overall government tax income remains roughly the same, to make the proposal more palatable. Overall, everyone keeps more of their wealth, and the playing field is leveled and we're a bit closer to an actual meritocracy."
RhysU 9y ago
Imagine the limit of a $0 exemption for the US estate tax. What an unbelievably unpopular and inconvenient thing. The middle class selling dead parents houses to cover inheritance. Many small businesses dismantled. Liquidating stock portfolios in poor market conditions. Those of any means whatsoever would jump through hoops to avoid the harm and hassle. The burden and overhead of the gifting and paperwork would consume excessive amounts of time in what is not useful economic activity.

32 points by todd8 9y ago

Is this an argument against the idea of estate tax or the implementation of estate tax in the United States? It reads likes the latter, but the more interesting discussion is regarding the former.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> Is this an argument against the idea of estate tax or the implementation of estate tax in the United States? It reads likes the latter, but the more interesting discussion is regarding the former. The general consensus from economists opposes the estate tax. There are a few aspects of its implementation that are particularly problematic, but there's no way to implement an estate tax that doesn't ultimately either (a) lead to these sorts of outcomes, or (b) defeat the entire point of an estate tax in the first place. The short letter might read like it's arguing against the implementation, but if you're familiar with Friedman's work, he shows why estate taxes inherently lead to such undesirable outcomes.
- zimablue 9y ago
  Can you provide more sources from this? Friedman as far as I understand economics represents an outlier in the free market US school of economics, which I thought was on the retreat in recent years?
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Friedman as far as I understand economics represents an outlier in the free market US school of economics Not really, in the general case, but definitely not on the topic of the estate tax. It's actually quite hard to find rigorous economic analysis and research that defends the estate tax. > I thought [the free market US school of economics] was on the retreat in recent years? That's definitely not true. The current political tide is towards taxation and regulation, but politics have very little to do with what economists agree on (much to their chagrin), and politics is highly cyclical. Also, I'm not sure why "US" is in there - it's not like free-market economics is advocated particularly strongly by US economics compared to their foreign counterparts. Again, politics and consensus among economists are not the same thing.
taeric 9y ago
Do you have leads to interesting debates in this? I've mostly only seen yelling and name calling. :( I confess I'm predisposed to keeping it. My mindset doesn't see it as a "death tax" and my contrarian mindset may dislike the idea of repeal from the marketing that went into that label.

taeric 9y ago

I find the claim at the outset almost laughable. That eliminating this tax would see an increase in revenue. With word that for the one family this will save them more than a billion... Yeah, not going to recup in indirect ways. I'm not entirely against dynasties, but it does seem against original US ways. This is definitely a return to policies that can allow a landed gentry.

walshemj 9y ago
You know how much Land Washington owned right
- taeric 9y ago
  I'm curious where you are taking this line.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    The American revolution was run by landowners and the constitution was set up to favor them you don't know this?
    - taeric 9y ago
      You can take it that way. But I can also easily ask how many families from the founding fathers are still in large power? That those with land and power get to use said power is fine. And I never claimed that was against values. That they establish dynasties where the main accomplishment is simply birth to a rich name is where I question things.
      - ng12 9y ago
        A lot, actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Anglo-Saxon_Protestant
        9y ago

dave_sullivan 9y ago

Scroll down the page and a pop up from the "Family Business Coalition" asks to sign up for their mailing list to help repeal the estate tax. The main points they offer for why are `the estate tax wouldn't raise much money anyway because estate planners have hid the money well` and `it's too hard to enforce`. Doesn't feel like a very nuanced argument.

tootie 9y ago
Wasn't the estate tax repealed last week?
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Wasn't the estate tax repealed last week? No, it wasn't.
tankenmate 9y ago
It's just a more "educated" version of Bart's favourite saying "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, there's no way you can prove anything." [0] And from there they segue into it's too difficult for you to do anything so let's do away it (implying of course that inequality doesn't matter, or matter enough to even take a stance on). Even in its current "broken" practice it stops the worst of inequalities and is revenue positive even if only by a small amount. So the real question to be raised by this letter is, does inequality matter, and if so how much does it matter and more precisely how much does it cost society as a whole. Maybe a yearly wealth tax for all people (natural and legal) of 0.1% would work better? Such a tax in the US would raise between USD40B to USD45B a year. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24

ihsw2 9y ago

The estate tax has been nearly the best way of reducing wealth inequality, second only to the income tax. Like many wealthy individuals off of Hacker News, you more than likely have a Roth IRA account that houses Vanguard mutual funds. John C Bogle (or Jack Bogle), the founder of the Vanguard Group, has consistently and wholeheartedly supported the estate tax as a time-tested means of reducing income inequality. The estate tax has a deep and lengthy history stretching back centuries and (unfortunately) there is a dearth of economic data pointing to it being beneficial to society. It is nonetheless important to emphasize the mutual respect and shared responsibility between the wealthy and non-wealthy. I am by no means a rabid Communist but rather a right-leaning individual that feels strongly about this subject -- there is most definitely precedent for the estate tax's usefulness. The basis of the argument against the estate tax is capital flight and that is just a weak red herring that ignores how immobile most wealth is.

jimhefferon 9y ago
> there is a dearth of economic data pointing to it being only beneficial to society. Possibly you meant "wealth" of data?
- ihsw2 9y ago
  I meant dearth of data, and I have rephrased the paragraph to more clearly convey the intention. While there is a lack of supporting data, the intent is important.
pico303 9y ago
Um, just wanted to kindly point out you may not have meant “dearth”, which means, “a scarcity or lack of.” Perhaps “abundance”?
- walshemj 9y ago
  That is what they ment.
  - 9y ago

jannotti 9y ago

Counter argument. https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21731626-case-taxing-inherited-assets-strong-hated-tax-fair-one https://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21731626-case-taxing-... In my opinion, a wealth tax (of which estate tax is one example) is much fairer than an income tax. It is somewhat difficult to levy, but I don't think it's inherently more difficult than measuring income for income tax. It's just that we've spent a century working on income monitoring laws and regulation.

DoofusOfDeath 9y ago
I'm unable to find a satisfying definition of "fairness" when it comes to taxation. So for now I try to think about a tax's likely consequences. Honest question: Have you had more luck?
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  I think that an "increase in wealth" tax might be accomplished by taxing income, but deducting all consumer spending. If you earn $70k and spend $60k on rent, utilities, groceries, car repairs, and such, then $10k is taxable. If you earn $40k and spend $40k, essentially living paycheck-to-paycheck, $0 is taxable. If you earn $300k and spend $100k, then $200k is taxable. Purchase of financial instruments and equities are not deductible. If you add to that an exemption of the higher of 5% of income or $20k--so as to not punish people for having a reasonable savings rate--and progressively tax the remainder, that seems pretty "fair" to me (aside from the question of whether any tax can be truly fair). Those who end up paying it are only the ones who can afford to pay it, and they pay in proportion to the extent to which they benefited from the economy. This kind of tax, like any other, also has possible unintended consequences.
- jannotti 9y ago
  Well, I'm not sure there's any definition that's going to come straight from first principles, but I see a wealth tax as something closer to the way we tax corporations, which is to tax "profit" not "revenue". A personal income tax is more of a revenue tax - even if someone has to spend every dollar they make on kids, health care, rent, etc - we still tax it. We try to fix this a little, by offering deductions that we think make sense. But a wealth tax seems like a more direct way to get at this idea. Levy a tax on the money that people are able to accumulate, not on the money that flows through them.

whowouldathunk 9y ago

The estate tax is justified as a means of reducing the concentration of wealth. However, the truly wealthy and their estate planners avoid the tax. The low yield of the tax is a testament to the ineffectiveness of the tax as a force for reshaping the distribution of wealth. Of course, those recommending the repeal of the estate tax are also probably of the opinion that wealth concentration is not a problem.

bhickey 9y ago

This letter is disingenuous in its argumentation. > the earnings on the assets were taxed year after year Given the stepped up basis upon death, gains accrued during life are never taxed.

UncleMeat 9y ago
Yep. The claim that the estate tax is a double tax has been a lie for decades.

Morizero 9y ago

This kind of argument from authority is well parodied by 'Project Steve', IMO: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve

unclenoriega 9y ago

> Spend your money on riotous living – no tax; leave your money to your children – the tax collector gets paid first. What about sales/excise/VAT taxes? This letter seems disingenuous at best.

pzone 9y ago
1) We try to encourage saving and investment by collecting VAT instead of taxing capital gains. It's the exact same logic and perfectly consistent. 2) Sales/excise/VAT taxes are still collected whether it's the parent or child who is spending the money. It's symmetrical and doesn't treat one moment in time or one generation differently than another.
efaref 9y ago
Your children will still pay those when they spend their money on riotous living.

sandworm101 9y ago

"Death tax" is the best PR campaign ever. This is an inheritance tax. Nobody is taxing death. They are taxing the post-death transfer of wealth. And why complain? You will be dead. If you really want to avoid this tax, give away your vast wealth while still alive. I think we should apply a death tax only to dead people. A 100% tax on post-death income to the estates of the dead. That should speed up the settlement process.

alehul 9y ago
Would that not sap people's motivation to work hard and innovate, if they were unable to pass on the benefits to their children? What if they provided a comfortable lifestyle for their children? Would that just be taken away by the government upon the parent's death?
- KentGeek 9y ago
  Remember that there's a HUGE exemption (the recently passed Donor Relief Act increases it to >$20M) and then it's only a percentage of the amount above that exemption. Your tears are wasted.
  - alehul 9y ago
    I was responding to what I believed was a 100% tax being suggested. Not 'only a percentage'.
- plandis 9y ago
  This is a tax (in the US at least) of assets over $10MM. Where in the US can that much untaxed money not provide a comfortable living?
  - alehul 9y ago
    I was responding to someone who was suggesting to set the tax at 100%, and I believe they meant all assets. My mistake if they meant otherwise. Nonetheless, with enough kids, that money doesn't go terribly far in the Bay Area.

platz 9y ago

Republicans reject the idea that inequality should be reduced via government policy, because that would mean limiting an individuals freedoms, in service of the group. They reject this idea of "collective fairness" because individuals' rights are much more important than the rights of the collective.

rayiner 9y ago

I think this starts from a backwards premise. The question isn't whether the government should tax inheritances, but whether the government should have a mechanism for people to control property beyond death in the first place: https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_fathers https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax.... Simply having property escheat to the government at death would seem to address the only real, non-moralistic argument raised by the letter: that the estate tax is expensive to administer but doesn't raise much revenue. Of course, people would probably arrange for inter-vivos transfers instead. That would be fine, because such transfers would be taxable income to the recipient (presumably, while we're getting rid of inheritance, we can get rid of what we call "gift income" which is really just regular income). There is precedent for it: > Thomas Paine, like [Adam] Smith and Jefferson, made much of the idea that landed property itself was an affront to the natural right of each generation to the usufruct of the earth, and proposed a "ground rent" — in fact an inheritance tax — on property at the time it is conveyed at death, with the money so collected to be distributed to all citizens at age 21, "as a compensation in part, for the loss of his or her natural inheritance, by the introduction of the system of landed property." There is a certain libertarian appeal to the idea of property rights ending at death. Maybe there is a "natural right" to property. But surely there is no "natural right" to have a whole apparatus of government dedicated to carrying out the wishes of dead people.

KentGeek 9y ago

Apparently an 11 million dollar exemption (soon to be >20 million) isn't enough to satisfy these oligarchs - (not to mention that above that exemption, we're still only talking a percentage, not the entire fortune).

skywhopper 9y ago

First, this letter is nothing new, this should be marked with "(2001)". As for the content, this letter gives no evidence of its claims, and simply relies on the emotional power of the phrase "death should not be a taxable event". It makes vague, unsupported assertions about the effect of the tax on saving, the cost of enforcing and collecting the tax, the amount collected by the tax, and the prevalence of avoiding the tax. Without actual numbers, though, it's impossible to argue with effectively, which is exactly the point of this rhetorical style. The letter also falls into the narrowly hyper-rational trap of elevating vague economic principles to the level of an absolute moral stance. Just because some policy doesn't meet a completely artificial and oversimplified ideal of economic efficiency doesn't mean it's definitely the wrong policy. The real world is more complicated than an economic model. Ultimately, the most important thing to understand is that this letter was a political statement in support of George W Bush's proposed tax policy in 2001, and not a serious argument. The content is no basis for a reasoned discussion of estate tax policy; it's a propaganda piece.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> As for the content, this letter gives no evidence of its claims You're demanding a lot for a 325-word letter. The author of the letter has written multiple books and papers on this topic in great detail. If you're looking for formal analysis that supports the claims, that's the place to look for it, not this letter.
philipwhiuk 9y ago
Given that birth is a tax deductible event there is a sense of harmony in death being a taxable event.

lkrubner 9y ago

The only appropriate death tax is 100%. The goal is not to raise money for the government, the goal is to protect society from oligarchy. Most oligarchs come from wealthy families -- that kind of vast wealth accumulates over the course of generations. So as to allow minor things, such as a house, to pass from parents to children, a low level exemption is reasonable, so the tax does not touch the poor or middle classes. Suppose the first $5 million are tax-free. That is more generous than the current system, and since $5 million is too small an amount to lead to oligarchy, it should not raise any concerns. But beyond $5 million, the appropriate tax should be 100% -- all of the wealth should go back to the society from whence it came. The money raised from such a tax can help give poor children something to start with in life, and thus such a tax allows each child of each generation to start off with roughly equal assets. Thus everyone's accomplishments in life become truly their own, rather than being partly their own and partly their ancestors. The over-reliance on ancestors is a sad state of affairs that holds for many children of the wealthy.

walshemj 9y ago
So you be happy for middle class JAMS (just about managing) to accept the state stealing the parents or grand parents home on death.
- rayiner 9y ago
  It's on thing to say that the government should intervene in the state of nature to protect you from being dispossessed of property you've earned. It's a step further to say that the government should intervene to maintain the standard of living for your children after you can no longer do so by virtue of your death. It's an expansion in the concept of property from a personal right, to something that transcends the person.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    I am fairly sure the Magna Charter which is part of UK common law which US law descends from explicitly has "the right of all free citizens to own and inherit property" The UNHCR also has Article 17(2) (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property

moomin 9y ago

Observe that the letter is dumb from the beginning. “Riotous living: no tax” Now a) have these people never heard of VAT? b) every last bartender, private jet pilot, jazz musician, minder and hooker said wastrel interacts with pays taxes. The truth is, the playboy billionaire is way better for the economy than the upright citizen who sits at home on a pile of money. And... the author knows this. He’s just hoping that cheap moralism will get you to agree with him when actually it’s part of a programme of action where he doesn’t disclose his actual motivations. I said dumb at the start, dishonest would be more accurate.

outsideoflife 9y ago

In the UK there is an equivalent 'inheritance tax'. It is a grossly unfair tax in that it fails to tax the most wealthy. For instance the Grosvenor Estate of the Duke of Westminster recently passed an estimated $59bn company and $16bn in personal wealth to the next generation without paying any inheritance tax at all. This is a achieved by structuring as a trust fund. Yes anyone could start a trust fund, but not everyone can afford the professional fees. [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosvenor_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosvenor_Group [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grosvenor,_7th_Duke_of_Westminster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grosvenor,_7th_Duke_of_We...

hirundo 9y ago

The kinds of businesses that generate enough of an estate to tax are the successful ones. It is very common for such businesses to be sold or liquidated in order to pay the estate tax. It is not easy to find new investments that are equally successful. And the taxed part of the estate is at least as likely to be used to suppress as to encourage economic growth. Also, the reduced incentive to generate wealth for your offspring is not insignificant. So I don't find it to be implausible that eliminating the estate tax could increase tax revenue as successful business continue to create wealth.

moosey 9y ago
Then fix it so that it works the same way as many other countries that have estate taxes and want to protect these businesses: The tax is imposed as a debt against the business that is paid off over time. Simple, and successful businesses survive it.

tjpaudio 9y ago

As part of my senior thesis years ago, I did an econometric model/analysis that sought to explain inequality as proxied by difference between mean wages of the bottom 90% of earners vs the top 10%. Times where the amount of estate tax collected per capita was highest highly correlated with the lowest periods of inequality by this measure. Trashing the concept of estate tax on the premise that it is hard to enforce is a bad idea, we should focus our energy on how to better implement it.

jtbayly 9y ago
Was it correlation or causation?

trey-jones 9y ago

I am not an expert - I appreciate and (without being an expert) mostly agree with the comments that promote the estate tax as redistribution of wealth. But: It seems to me, as usual, that small business owners (their progeny, that is) are the ones who get screwed by estate tax. Full disclosure: I am not a small business owner, but my father has been for nearly 30 years. I anticipate that my younger brother, who works in the family business, will be more affected by this than I will be, so I consider myself fairly objective here. In our example, my parents are doing fine, but they are by no means a "wealth center". My dad worked hard building the business. It took about 20 years for him to see meaningful profit (it's manufacturing). So the problem as I see it is that my parents (like other small business owners) have the majority of their "wealth" tied up in the business. So the business would need to be dismantled in order to pay the estate tax, which leaves my brother (also working hard) in a tight spot. I'm sure that there are ways around this, and hopefully they are thinking about that. I know that at some point there was a large life insurance policy meant to cover the tax. Sure, it's still redistribution of wealth, but us folks in the middle are the ones that feel it. The top dogs will still pass most of it on.

ghouse 9y ago
With a exemption on the first $22 million gifted to your brother by your parents after the surviving spouse dies, I don't think this fits the definition of "small" or "in the middle."
- logfromblammo 9y ago
  Incorporate the business. The parents as the majority owners on the board elect the brother as CEO. The brother appoints siblings to executive positions. The executive salaries include stock grants. The company then trades shares of stock for life annuities of equivalent present value. Essentially, the company starts a pension plan for its owners. As long as they still live, the parents take pension payments, in lieu of dividends or distributions, and the kids gradually build up equity by "working" in their executive positions. The pension benefit appears as a liability on the balance sheet, depressing on paper the basis of the privately-held company stock. When the parents die, their beneficial interest in the form of the life annuity is terminated immediately, without any intervention by an executor or probate judge. That cash flow from the company is now freed up for dividends. The value flies from the present value of the life annuity to the stock price of the company that no longer has to pay it, just as the last breath leaves the body, so fast that the taxman cannot catch it. The kids will realize a capital gain if they ever sell their stock, and will see a rise in dividend income going forward. This increase in wealth would be the same size as a normal inheritance, but does not trigger taxation until they sell the stock, and avoids estate taxes entirely. Income tax is paid quarterly. This is fine. The estate tax earns the government no revenue. It served its purpose by encouraging the elder generations to yield their power over the family businesses before they die.

logfromblammo 9y ago

By far, the best investment Warren Buffett ever made was to let his kids know that they would have to earn their own money. Also, I'm now dying to know how many economists in total have an opinion on estate taxation. They ought to know better than anyone else that sometimes proportions are more significant than absolute values. My own, not-an-economist opinion is that the estate tax is bad, only because it waits until someone has died before making an intervention, then tries to do too much, all at once, and probably too late to make a difference. The letter is correct in that death should not be a taxable event. The tax should probably be invoked every time wealth is transferred from an elder benefactor to a younger, adult recipient, and defined such that all the trusts and offshore accounts and sham business arrangements are transparent to the taxing authority. If your "job" is to be an executive assistant to mommy or daddy, and for that you earn six figures, then the taxing authority should be able to determine the amount paid in excess of the median executive assistant and levy the nepotism tax on that. The idea is not to make money, but to discourage certain behaviors. If the rich people avoid the tax by employing their peers' children instead of their own, that's fine; it gives those kids the opportunity to work for a boss that won't cut them slack just to avoid awkwardness at the holidays. The estate tax isn't just a tax on a parent's hard work and success. It is a tax on spoiled little rich kids, who never learned the value of actual work in the economy, who then go on to own companies and control what people do in them. It's a tax on being disconnected from the conditions experienced by lower classes, wherein it is essential to earn what you get, rather than accept whatever it is you think you deserve as your birthright. I don't begrudge rich people their ability to provide additional opportunities to their children. But when their children turn out to be aristocratic twits, I also feel the desire to teach them the hard lessons that the rest of us likely got much earlier in our lives, to perhaps make them better, more empathetic people. And those are lessons best learned by not having so much money that self-discipline and self-sacrifice are never necessary. I get the feeling that fewer people would be laid off by stack ranking or to shore up quarterly results if those doing it had some inkling of what it means to be the one laid off--the panic, the fear, the depression, the austerity, and maybe even the irrational optimism.

RhysU 9y ago
I look forward to you extending your argument to proposing a $0, not $11M, exemption.

nicolashahn 9y ago

I proposed an alternate to the current estate tax here that I think is relevant: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15947957 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15947957 (ctrl-f "cap on inheritance") "An exceptionally productive individual can generate billions, but then when he dies the money goes to his heirs which may not have done anything to deserve commanding that much wealth other than having been raised by (and having the genetics of) the exceptionally productive individual, which is a far cry from being exceptionally productive themselves. My thought was to create a cap on inheritance. Enough so that the heirs would be able to live a normal middle class life without working, but not be disgustingly wealthy like the parent. ~$5 million seemed like enough to live off interest for a lifetime. I don't think productivity would be disincentivized too much by this, as the productive individuals still get to use their wealth as long as they're living. It'd probably be pretty difficult to plug all the loopholes but I think it's worth thinking about. We could lighten some other taxes (income, property, whatever) for this increased death tax such that the overall government tax income remains roughly the same, to make the proposal more palatable. Overall, everyone keeps more of their wealth, and the playing field is leveled and we're a bit closer to an actual meritocracy."

RhysU 9y ago

Imagine the limit of a $0 exemption for the US estate tax. What an unbelievably unpopular and inconvenient thing. The middle class selling dead parents houses to cover inheritance. Many small businesses dismantled. Liquidating stock portfolios in poor market conditions. Those of any means whatsoever would jump through hoops to avoid the harm and hassle. The burden and overhead of the gifting and paperwork would consume excessive amounts of time in what is not useful economic activity.