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At the risk of being downvoted until my comment is dead like below, I have to say I agree with muninn_. This is a great thing for India, and it's really unfortu

At the risk of being downvoted until my comment is dead like below, I have to say I agree with muninn_. This is a great thing for India, and it's really unfortunate that the US has been poaching academic and technical talent to their own advantage, and the disadvantage of less well off countries for so long. The brain drain of the US (and the UK and Germany to a much smaller extent) is a real phenomena, and it's especially damaging for developing countries.

jdavis703 9y ago
It's not like Indian developers are being kidnapped and shipped over on a boat to the U.S. Everyone who comes to the U.S. does so on their own volition, jumping through crazy immigration hoops. It's a free market for jobs, and if in the past Indian (or for that matter Chinese and other countries with a brain drain) companies couldn't complete, well that's their own fault.
- j45 9y ago
  Your position seems to be based in an assumption that the issue is competitiveness alone. Another factor is Indian companies like wipro and reliance are buying operations outright in North America. The ship and kidnapping reference to slavery is in poor taste, It might be easier to get your point across and help people be more open to exploring your perspective if you weren't so easy and loose with colloquialisms that are rooted in something that likely doesn't represent you.
  - FilterSweep 9y ago
    I'll add that the threat of H1Bs have been used as a threatening tool to US employees by US companies.[0] Can't work longer hours for less pay? Reasonably expect your wages to increase with each year? Fine! We'll hire someone from outside. And generally, when someone takes a criminally low level of pay for their high skill labor, all workers, domestic and international, suffer. [0] This is the other side of the coin, career American engineers being fired and "forced"(for their severance) to train cheaper Replacements https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff... And Disney is just one example - tons of US companies "clean house" when they get frustrated at a high operating budget.
    - j45 9y ago
      I hope such hardball tactics will set up those companies to fail at their digital transformation they are undertaking anyways. All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect. The reality sadly is some groups have to work much harder for much less and it is leveraged against not only them, but other groups too. Seeing freelancer rates worldwide slowly creep up may be a significant of things to come. The cheaper labor is getting g more specialized and expensive.
      - FilterSweep 9y ago
        > All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect. I fully agree. I hope these rates increasing will help the talent in this entire industry price itself better.
        j45 9y ago
        It has been surprising me how much easier it has been to find remote talent solely on mutually being developers and starting with a foundation of respect (and clear specs). Communicating and working together well is needed especially for remote work.
- viridian 9y ago
  The problem is that the US has capita available that other countries simply don't. If we follow this trend to it's extreme conclusion we end with a world where one country has all the capital and imports every smart, skilled, or otherwise top percentage person in terms of economic value, to the detriment of the entire rest of the world. Other countries can obviously incentivize people and startups like the US does, and that may slowly close the culture gap, but the US is already way ahead in capital. It's also hard to justify incentivizing an industry which already makes more than most of a country does via capital injection. When half the country is food insecure, the 2-10th percentile of the country getting handed government money doesn't go over well, anywhere.
- calvinbhai 9y ago
  Its not a free market for Indian developers coming to US on H1b. Its just high paying shackled visa. As someone who worked for a long time on H1b (at startups in US), I realized only later how shackled I was compared to even high skilled immigrants from other countries! I think with tighter immigration restrictions in US and EU, its been amazing to see many product companies popping up in India (instead of just the IT services industry). US is sitting on a golden egg (of H1b engineers in US). If US makes it difficult for Indian immigrants, sure the immigrants will lose in the short term, but long term it is good for Indian and Indians.
at-fates-hands 9y ago
It's interesting you bring up this point. When I went to college in North Dakota, there was a similar feeling with kids from North Dakota getting technical degrees (computer science, engineering, medical) and then moving to Minnesota and getting jobs there as opposed to keeping that knowledge in state. There was a real push to try and keep these people from moving to Minnesota. At the time, my three best friends and teammates were all from various parts of rural North Dakota. All ended up with engineering degrees. All said the same thing, "Why would I stay here and get paid $40K when I have a masters degree in Mechanical Engineering, when I can take a job in Minnesota and make $80K?"
- calvinbhai 9y ago
  this works for every level in India. People from villages move to nearby big towns, cities. and from there to state capitals or tech/business/finance hubs. If ND has no thriving tech ecosystem, whats the point staying there?

jdavis703 9y ago

It's not like Indian developers are being kidnapped and shipped over on a boat to the U.S. Everyone who comes to the U.S. does so on their own volition, jumping through crazy immigration hoops. It's a free market for jobs, and if in the past Indian (or for that matter Chinese and other countries with a brain drain) companies couldn't complete, well that's their own fault.

j45 9y ago
Your position seems to be based in an assumption that the issue is competitiveness alone. Another factor is Indian companies like wipro and reliance are buying operations outright in North America. The ship and kidnapping reference to slavery is in poor taste, It might be easier to get your point across and help people be more open to exploring your perspective if you weren't so easy and loose with colloquialisms that are rooted in something that likely doesn't represent you.
- FilterSweep 9y ago
  I'll add that the threat of H1Bs have been used as a threatening tool to US employees by US companies.[0] Can't work longer hours for less pay? Reasonably expect your wages to increase with each year? Fine! We'll hire someone from outside. And generally, when someone takes a criminally low level of pay for their high skill labor, all workers, domestic and international, suffer. [0] This is the other side of the coin, career American engineers being fired and "forced"(for their severance) to train cheaper Replacements https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff... And Disney is just one example - tons of US companies "clean house" when they get frustrated at a high operating budget.
  - j45 9y ago
    I hope such hardball tactics will set up those companies to fail at their digital transformation they are undertaking anyways. All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect. The reality sadly is some groups have to work much harder for much less and it is leveraged against not only them, but other groups too. Seeing freelancer rates worldwide slowly creep up may be a significant of things to come. The cheaper labor is getting g more specialized and expensive.
    - FilterSweep 9y ago
      > All labor, skilled or not, local or not, deserve basic dignity and respect. I fully agree. I hope these rates increasing will help the talent in this entire industry price itself better.
      - j45 9y ago
        It has been surprising me how much easier it has been to find remote talent solely on mutually being developers and starting with a foundation of respect (and clear specs). Communicating and working together well is needed especially for remote work.
viridian 9y ago
The problem is that the US has capita available that other countries simply don't. If we follow this trend to it's extreme conclusion we end with a world where one country has all the capital and imports every smart, skilled, or otherwise top percentage person in terms of economic value, to the detriment of the entire rest of the world. Other countries can obviously incentivize people and startups like the US does, and that may slowly close the culture gap, but the US is already way ahead in capital. It's also hard to justify incentivizing an industry which already makes more than most of a country does via capital injection. When half the country is food insecure, the 2-10th percentile of the country getting handed government money doesn't go over well, anywhere.
calvinbhai 9y ago
Its not a free market for Indian developers coming to US on H1b. Its just high paying shackled visa. As someone who worked for a long time on H1b (at startups in US), I realized only later how shackled I was compared to even high skilled immigrants from other countries! I think with tighter immigration restrictions in US and EU, its been amazing to see many product companies popping up in India (instead of just the IT services industry). US is sitting on a golden egg (of H1b engineers in US). If US makes it difficult for Indian immigrants, sure the immigrants will lose in the short term, but long term it is good for Indian and Indians.

at-fates-hands 9y ago

It's interesting you bring up this point. When I went to college in North Dakota, there was a similar feeling with kids from North Dakota getting technical degrees (computer science, engineering, medical) and then moving to Minnesota and getting jobs there as opposed to keeping that knowledge in state. There was a real push to try and keep these people from moving to Minnesota. At the time, my three best friends and teammates were all from various parts of rural North Dakota. All ended up with engineering degrees. All said the same thing, "Why would I stay here and get paid $40K when I have a masters degree in Mechanical Engineering, when I can take a job in Minnesota and make $80K?"

calvinbhai 9y ago
this works for every level in India. People from villages move to nearby big towns, cities. and from there to state capitals or tech/business/finance hubs. If ND has no thriving tech ecosystem, whats the point staying there?