8 ms·
Who owns the space between reclining airline seats?
- totalZero 9y agoI firmly believe that if your seat reclines, you are totally entitled to use the full extent of that recline. The only issue I've ever had with this was when a Lufthansa flight attendant barked at me to set my seat upright as I was napping while the person behind me was eating. It was a transatlantic flight. Never flew Lufthansa again.
- platz 9y agoWoof
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- poulsbohemian 9y agoI've been on US domestic flights in which the seats were so close together that the person reclining had their face below mine, in my lap. I would prefer to agree with you that if the seat reclines you should be able to use it, but the reality of what the airlines have done to pack in more people makes it physically painful for other passengers when you do. The airlines have done an excellent job turning us all against each other, when this problem is of their making, out of pure greed.
- turc1656 9y agoYup. I was thinking the same thing. They could easily remove 2-3 rows of seating, giving everyone extra room. It really doesn't have to be much room, even 2 inches makes a huge different with the way they have designed planes. It's the same nonsense on buses. I commute via bus every day and I'm dumbfounded that while the bus is pretty much never full the bus company doesn't remove 1-2 rows to free up leg room and reclining room for everyone.
- tostitos1979 9y agoYou might be a youngin ... these cramped seats are a modern phenomenon. Did you know air travel was a highly regulated thing? Airlines squeezed every drop of efficiency they could post 9-11 ... they did it and no one complained because people wanted to support them (patriotic reasons and general decency). The airlines took it too far with all these charges, cramped seats, etc. They also implemented dynamic pricing and demand management which I think is a great evil as a consumer.
- tziki 9y agoIt's pretty common airline ethiquette to put your seat upright when the food is being distributed and people are eating.
- toomuchtodo 9y agoSitting in a Google talk once, the lecturer said "If your policy doesn't exist in code, it doesn't exist." I'd like to think that analogy applies in social situations as well. It'd be nice if people would exhibit kindness and etiquette in social situations, but in the case of airlines, better to enforce it through mechanical design [+]. [+] As jonp mentions "With newer planes, the seat's pivot point is above the knees of the person behind.": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16022774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16022774
- tedunangst 9y agoThe airline does enforce it. While people are eating, they tell you to keep the seat up.
- totalZero 9y agoThis is not true for the USA companies. Where a policy has been stated regarding recline, that policy has been "there is no policy" and "we get involved only if passenger safety becomes an issue." On the many flights I have taken, I have only seen a flight attendant do something once (aforementioned), and I'm not able to find a Lufthansa policy that backed her actions up.
- nemo44x 9y agoI'm not sure a complex mechanical device is a requirement. The airlines could mention before takeoff that it's proper etiquette to not fully recline your seat until after the meal waste has been collected and to not recline during service. This doesn't physically stop someone from reclining but it certainly sets a social expectation of them and empowers a flight attendant to respectfully ask the patron to decline their seat when it is inappropriately reclined.
- NikolaNovak 9y agoDo you at least give some warning? I'm 189cm / 6'2". My #1 flying pet peeve are people who push down the lever, slam all their weight on the seat, and rapidly recline their seat into crushing my knees. A polite warning would be tremendously appreciated; it's similar to how a quick friendly wave of hand can make many road-rages terminate before they begin :)
- poulsbohemian 9y agoI have had bruised knees from this as well, but what's even more irksome is when they do this and slam into my expensive laptop. And then sit in the seat in front of me murmuring about how it is their right to recline their seat.
- orclev 9y agoI just lift my legs a little which completely blocks them from reclining because at that point my knees are pressed into the seat when it's fully upright. They literally can't recline because there's no room to do so. Airlines have reached the point where in a lot of cases there is no room between the seats when they're fully upright, unless the seat behind the passenger is empty it physically can't recline.
- bradleyankrom 9y agoI'm 6'5" and had to be relocated on a recent Air Canada flight because the person in front of me reclined and I literally could not move. I now have a note on my phone that simply says "Airbus 319 sucks." I hope I remember to check my notes before booking another flight w/ AC.
- monort 9y agoSeats configuration depends on air company, not the plane. Check seatguru.com before buying tickets, or better buy/upgrade to exit row seats.
- bradleyankrom 9y ago
- crispyambulance 9y agoPoliteness and consideration for the people with which one shares space should override the "entitlement" of a few inches of space.
- nemo44x 9y agoI think you're right to a point but there is a thing called etiquette. And we should respect that and not infringe on another person's enjoyment when inappropriate to do so. In terms of longer flights I find it ridiculous when people fully recline the second they are allowed to after takeoff. A small recline (20% for instance) is fine as it doesn't infringe on the person behind them and adds a sometimes necessary level of comfort that a fully upright seat does not. Fully reclining right after takeoff is rude and a breach of etiquette I believe. The main reason why, on a longer flight that is, is because drinks and food are served pretty quickly after the aircraft is stable. This means the person behind you requires a tray for a time to consume their beverage and meal. Etiquette says you should allow the person behind you to take advantage of this space during this time. Even if you choose not to partake in this event, you should respect the person's behind you who may in fact need this space to enjoy (as much as they can!) their meal with ample space. After the meal's waste have been collected is when I find it acceptable to go back all the way. This is often the time people begin to nap or sleep and the space is better used for this purpose. Some common courtesy, compassion and politeness goes a long way in making a better, more enjoyable place for everyone.
- aptwebapps 9y agoNo recline when food is being served or when otherwise instructed by the crew, full recline the rest of the time. None of this 20% nonsense. But I'm biased because I have a lower back problem, and I need all the recline I can get in economy on longer flights.
- mylons 9y agoyou having to work on an airplane is your problem. if you HAVE to work on an airplane, ensure you can do so by getting a business class seat or better. by failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.
- always_good 9y agoThere's such little etiquette in airports and airplanes that it's a good opportunity to vent a little rage at everyone else. I think it's healthy. Like Purge Day in that movie "The Purge". For example, how everyone stands up immediately as soon as the plane lands. Someone 5 rows back managing to depart before you because you remained seated until it's your row's turn, but they have one of those oversized carry-ons and can't even get it down. So they essentially cut in front of you just to make you wait on them. Don't want anyone to be any less miserable than I am while traveling. It would unfairly deprive them of a great character-building experience.
- sitepodmatt 9y agoSeat up when person behind is eating is normal, every airline steward I've flown on tells the person in front to do when meals are served for ~20mins, no biggie, a lot of airlines will make your blacklist by the sounds of up. But don't mistake me for someone who doesn't get your first point, the entitlement attitude of the laptop hipsters who think they purchased a coworker space 35000ft in the air makes me a laugh, especially the jerks that submit articles to NY times with subtitles 'its never okay to recline in economy', buy business if you need/desire to work otherwise my sleep is more important imo and that recline button is mine.
- Tomte 9y agoI'm not working, I'm trying to sit without too much pain. But let#s turn it around: if you need to recline in order to sleep, buy first class. Normal people can sleep sitting upright.
- sitepodmatt 9y agoI guess I'm not normal. I wonder why they added that button in such case?
- Tomte 9y agoThey added it (a) before the seat distance was that low and (b) for use in cases where you don't hurt your neighbor. I'm not against reclining per se, I'm against reclining when you're physically hurting somebody. That's anti-social behaviour. And I know that people can be irrational "on my side", as well. I just came back today from my Christmas vacation in an A320. The lady across the aisle was telling the young men in front of her to immediately put his seat upright. In a not-too-friendly voice. It was obvious that the seat was already upright, it was in exactly the same position as the neighboring seats which were empty. After lots of button pushing and trying to comply the lady acted as if she was right and the young man had finally put his seat upright. That was a stupid, vicious woman.
- sitepodmatt 9y ago
- switch007 9y agoI sometimes feel that people go out of their way to take an extreme position on seat reclining (I also browse aviation forums). As your FA pointed out, it affects people in different situations. I've actually seen FAs asking people to put the seat up during meals many times. In such tight economy cabins these days, I think part of the deal is to think beyond your seat and show some concern for others. There are other cabins available to stretch out more freely without concern.
- totalZero 9y agoIf I'm spending more than six hours on a flight, I expect the person in front of me to want to recline. Seats are so constrained these days that I expect that people will stretch out at their convenience. The issue isn't concern for others, it's whether that concern extends forward to the seat ahead, or whether it extends backwards to the seat behind. One might be tempted to say, "every situation is different. Just ask the people behind you before you lean back, and comment to the people in front of you when you want them to lean less." But the problem with that is that most people want to sidestep the close-packing of the cabin by interacting with others as little as possible. Maybe a little polite conversation within the row, but that's it. BTW, my flight attendant didn't point much of anything out. She angrily yipped at me in German, no smile, no sense of friendliness. It struck me as bizarre, totally counter to the interpersonal skill that usually characterizes flight attendants. I chalked it up to a combination of a difference in culture and a lack of corporate attention on politeness. I have no problem with accommodating a polite request, although I lean back frequently and, other than that one instance, have never been asked to refrain from doing so by a passenger or flight attendant despite flying very often and almost always leaning back for some or all of the flight.
- tostitos1979 9y agoI never recline (unless there is an empty seat behind me) and firmly believe people who do are inconsiderate humans. Airline seats have shrunk to the point that people are wondering about medical issues due to restricted space.
- loopdoend 9y agoI only fly first/business due to my height, and this is true of most passengers in those sections. Very rarely does anyone recline, and I think it has something to do with type of traveller.
- davidivadavid 9y agoSame here. In fact, "inconsiderate humans" only brushes the surface of what I consider those people to be.
- monksy 9y agoThat is very typical of Lufthansa. (The FA barking at the passengers about this) Cathay Pacific also asks for people to put their seat up during the meal time. However they're incredibly polite about it.
- totalZero 9y agoYeah... I wouldn't have a problem with a polite request. I thought the FA was totally out of line, certainly by American standards. I had been traveling for about 55 hours by that time, on my way to Italy from a small fishing village in South America, so I was exhausted and didn't really appreciate the rudeness. I figured it was a Lufthansa thing and now I stay away from them. I haven't had the pleasure of flying Cathay Pacific yet, but I hear it's nice.
- e40 9y agoI firmly believe that if your seat reclines, you are totally entitled to use the full extent of that recline. Even if the person behind you is made much less comfortable??
- emerged 9y agoI'm in agreement that you are entitled to use the full recline. One is also entitled to cough and/or sneeze throughout the flight over top of your reclined head, as they are also entitled to accidentally bump your seat many times while fumbling to access their luggage and other personal items. I find myself exercising the latter entitlements with a very strong correlation to those exercising the former.
- TYPE_FASTER 9y agoSure, until your seat hits my knees. Have had people repeatedly slam their seat against my knees without looking back to see what is blocking it.
- joncp 9y agoThis has already been fixed. With newer planes, the seat's pivot point is above the knees of the person behind.
- lolsal 9y agoHow does a pivot point fix a reclining seat that is crushing my laptop into/onto the fold down tray?
- sjg007 9y agoIt doesn't... today you have to buy the premium economy (extra legroom / exit row) seat or business class if you want to do anything on a laptop.. even if it's the small 11-13 inch style.
- lolsal 9y agoAs of today, I don't have to purchase any upgrades to use my 15" laptop on the foldout tray in 'normal economy class'. Things only get cramped when the seat in front of me reclines.
- stefantheard 9y agoAlso how can this possibly be true for every human being? I'm only 6'5'' and for any plane I've been on this has not been true. Including "newer" planes eg. the 787 Dreamliner.
- sitepodmatt 9y agoNever seen this, was on a Qatar 787 recently, and an a320neo, and freshly densified 777, where is this magical seat you speak of?
- stefantheard 9y agoNot sure what you're asking, did you misread my original comment? This magical seat does not exist, even on new planes.
- tedunangst 9y agoSo the front row has nobody reclining into it. And the back row doesn't recline. So even if everybody reclines, that's not equal.
- francisofascii 9y agoFor some airlines, the price of the front seat is more than the back seat. So the inequity is factored in.
- misja111 9y agoBut not for the seat in the back.
- chrismcb 9y agoThe exit row topically didn't recline and had more room... If you don't want to sit in the back seat don't buy the ticket. It on Southwest make sure you get early registration.
- eximius 9y agoI wish there was an airline that offered 'All Business Class' flights. It'd really just be a marketing trick to try to escape the High Volume/Low Price vs. Low Volume/High Price dilemma. I don't know if it'd work, but I would like to see someone try. (Arguments saying it can't work because thats how flights used to be and ended up where we are ignore that those changes were gradual with all airlines competing together to erode their quality. A new market entry of what I describe would be sufficiently different to have marketing reasons to not compete on price, etc) EDIT: Welp, apparently its been done and doesn't work or is simply less profitable. Still makes me sad there isn't a middle ground between sardines and sheiks.
- cialowicz 9y agoIt's been done. Singapore Airlines flew the longest scheduled flight (between New York and Singapore, SQ21 and SQ22) using an all-business A340-500 [1]. They canceled the service in 2013 since revenue wasn't high enough. Apparently, there are a few small all-business carriers in operation [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_21 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Airlines_Flight_21 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_class_airline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_class_airline
- darrenf 9y agoThere have been several attempts and each airline has either failed, or relented to the market and introduced economy cabins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_class_airline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_class_airline
- Jhsto 9y agoLast time I checked flights between SF and LA I saw this company: https://www.flyvictor.com https://www.flyvictor.com Very expensive, but at least everything is business class.
- dingaling 9y agoFly Victor are a front-end agency for many small charter operators, they don't have their own fleet.
- _ph_ 9y agoOne big question not asked is: why is it accepted that airlines install seating and set row distances such that when fully reclining you severely impact the person sitting behind you?
- chx 9y agoBecause the flying public again and again votes with their dollars for the cheapest ticket everything else be damned.
- nightski 9y agoYou are acting like there is a choice. Every large airline that can move me around the country has the exact same experience. The only "choice" is first class. However that is not a choice. It's not 10% or even 20% more. It's like 200-300% the cost of a normal ticket.
- totalZero 9y agoMost airlines in my country offer an upgrade to premium economy for something like 40 to 80 USD.
- chx 9y agoI find a reclined seat uncomfortable. Must be me.
- solotronics 9y agowhy dont they angle the seats towards the aisle a bit? this helps with parked cars I would think it would be the same in this case.
- dingaling 9y agoThomson Aero Seating in the UK proposed an angled seating arrangement for economy / coach back in the early 2000s; no airline adopted it but they went crazy for the business-class version. Jet Blue have a special variation for their narrowbody airliners. One of the problems of angled seating is that it introduces additional lateral stresses on the body which have to be demonstrated during certification.
- tbirrell 9y agoBecause humans, and by extension, airline seats, are primarily vertical in nature. Whereas cars are primarily horizontal in nature. So the elongated side is extending in a different direction. In a parking lot, the shape, combined with the mechanics of parking, means that it helps to angle things. Though, you do lose one parking spot or so in the process. In a plane, the sides of the object (in this case the upright coffin sized space you fit into) are roughly the same, so angling will do little to help and is largely unneeded to "park" yourself. Ultimately though, airlines are unwilling to lose that one row if they did compensate for the morphing a reclined seat does for the shape of things.
- phil248 9y agoI've stuck to a policy of never reclining my seat on domestic and daytime flights. Unless of course the person in front of me starts a chain reaction. I believe it is a reasonable policy, but no one else seems to follow it.
- emerged 9y agoThe same applies to sporting events. I went to a college football game a few months ago and the first row was entirely dictating when the whole section had to stand up. Kind of an odd thing where many people don't think about it or just don't care.
- grepthisab 9y agoI do this too. I have long legs so if the person in front of me reclines, I have to as well. But otherwise I don’t recline and am very cognizant of the people behind me. One time the people in front of me reclined, so I reclined, and the people behind me asked me to unrecline. I told them the situation, and they asked the people in front of me to unrecline, they did, and I did.
- phil248 9y agoA rare happy ending!
- natecavanaugh 9y agoI'm a pretty big guy, so when I can't get an emergency exit seat, when the person in front of me reclines, not only can I not eat, but I can't watch any inflight entertainment, or do anything on the tray. So I thank you for your consideration. I've had waifs leaning back fully while I'm trying to eat (and I mean, these people could extend their legs and not really be cramped in the seat. Meanwhile, I'm eating with an old rough cushion between my head and plate. Good old Lufthansa ;)
- scarface74 9y agoI can't read the linked article because it's behind a paywall and the private browsing trick isn't working. The article seems to be based on the study discussed here. https://twocents.lifehacker.com/your-reclining-airplane-seat-vs-the-lap-behind-you-wh-1795298389 https://twocents.lifehacker.com/your-reclining-airplane-seat...