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>but assuming that so called home countries brains only can do serious engineering is quite short sighted. I don't think thats the point he's trying to make.

by ryen 9y ago

>but assuming that so called home countries brains only can do serious engineering is quite short sighted. I don't think thats the point he's trying to make. The Indian IT industry was designed and built for a certain type of labor/outsourcing market. It will take serious investment and attitude shift internally for local startups to grow and retain talent. Much of that talent that is able to perform the serious engineering you describe continually leave the country for the U.S. and other markets.

navinsylvester 9y ago
> at the big scale the top R&D and engineering work still generally occurs in the home countries that were sending work to India and there’s little evidence that these jobs could, at scale, be done successfully by the Indian firms offshore. I was talking about this outright dismissal without any ground. > Indian IT industry was designed and built for a certain type of labor/outsourcing market. Indian IT industry got shaped by the demand. You wanted cheaper options and you got provided one. > It will take serious investment and attitude shift internally for local startups to grow and retain talent. Pay good and you will retain talent. > Much of that talent that is able to perform the serious engineering you describe continually leave the country for the U.S. and other markets. Please speak for yourself. The west fixation does not apply to all folks. We get to do awesome engineering work here so don't have to be in a foreign land to do so. With remote teams coming into the picture having a preset notion that a team has to be local is an outdated mindset. And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job and have a better lifestyle here than the west can afford.
- kamaal 9y ago
  >>And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job and have a better lifestyle here than the west can afford. Bulk of you post is true. But lets give west the credit where they deserve. Most of us can't afford maids. May be you can. Even if we did, its more like jugaad. People in west don't need maids because they don't need maids to sweep the floor, they don't have 1 kg of road dust coming in from dug up roads unrepaired for years. Their homes are designed to make vaccum cleaners easily usable. They have cheap dishwashers, microwave ovens, washing machines and dryers. You move to west your standard of living by default sees an upgrade at 0 cost. Roads, infrastructure, schooling, economic opportunity etc etc.
  - wyclif 9y ago
    This is an important point. As a westerner living in Asia now, I'm always amused by the maid-mongering that goes on here: "Oh, do you have a maid, a driver, and servants?" These are widespread status symbols in Asia. Now, of course these household servants perform valuable labour here. But where I'm from, a technologically advanced country- we've largely obviated household help. We have central HVAC, automatic dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, Amazon Echo, Nest, etc etc. There is no need for full-time maids, you see. I'm sorry if this sounds smug, but it's true. Indians reminding westerners that they have maids is something that makes us smile knowingly. Residual colonialism in the 21st century doesn't impress us.
    - fjsolwmv 9y ago
      People in USA have maids as status symbol too
      - wyclif 9y ago
        Of course they do, but not nearly to the same extent. And the point here is that in the context of this thread, using maids as a mark on the Indian lifestyle-superiority index in the shadow of IT layoffs is not a good look.
      - mythrwy 9y ago
        In general not though. They have maids because they need them, not as a status symbol. And it is largely for the fairly wealthy and not something generally aspired to (in and of itself). In fact, a lot of people will instantly regard those with maids as "probably assholes" in the US.
      - Viper007Bond 9y ago
        Maybe 100 years ago. I don't know anyone or even heard of anyone with a maid. The closet thing is paying someone to come clean your house once or twice a month for an hour or two and that's pretty inexpensive.
    - Viper007Bond 9y ago
- sumedh 9y ago
  > And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job Which is nothing to be proud of, the maids are affordable because lot of poor people did not have the same privileges like you had.
  - dominotw 9y ago
    Yea why do Indians always brag about having maids. That's disgusting.
    - sumedh 9y ago
      Unfortunately the poor people who are usually illiterate are treated as a lower class. The rich or upper middle class kids while growing up see that they and their parents can order the maids to do almost anything and so when the kids grow up they see the maids as a class of people who are not equal to them. It becomes a status issue as well if you say you dont have maids then your affluent peers will think you are weird or that you cant even afford a maid.
- y4mi 9y ago
  > I was talking about this outright dismissal without any ground. The quotes text was an observation without any judgement. The rest of the post addresses how the Indian it industry started to boom and why they're losing so many jobs so quickly. Still no dismissal. It's not that Indian doesn't have talent. It's just that it's not smart to outsource your main competency. So they're not doing that.
aknoob 9y ago
Do you have data supporting your claim. I know a lot of people who are really good and continue to work in India. Infact I have also seen a lot of good people coming back to India (since last 2 - 3 years). So things are gradually improving for good.

by ryen 9y ago

navinsylvester 9y ago

> at the big scale the top R&D and engineering work still generally occurs in the home countries that were sending work to India and there’s little evidence that these jobs could, at scale, be done successfully by the Indian firms offshore. I was talking about this outright dismissal without any ground. > Indian IT industry was designed and built for a certain type of labor/outsourcing market. Indian IT industry got shaped by the demand. You wanted cheaper options and you got provided one. > It will take serious investment and attitude shift internally for local startups to grow and retain talent. Pay good and you will retain talent. > Much of that talent that is able to perform the serious engineering you describe continually leave the country for the U.S. and other markets. Please speak for yourself. The west fixation does not apply to all folks. We get to do awesome engineering work here so don't have to be in a foreign land to do so. With remote teams coming into the picture having a preset notion that a team has to be local is an outdated mindset. And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job and have a better lifestyle here than the west can afford.

kamaal 9y ago
>>And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job and have a better lifestyle here than the west can afford. Bulk of you post is true. But lets give west the credit where they deserve. Most of us can't afford maids. May be you can. Even if we did, its more like jugaad. People in west don't need maids because they don't need maids to sweep the floor, they don't have 1 kg of road dust coming in from dug up roads unrepaired for years. Their homes are designed to make vaccum cleaners easily usable. They have cheap dishwashers, microwave ovens, washing machines and dryers. You move to west your standard of living by default sees an upgrade at 0 cost. Roads, infrastructure, schooling, economic opportunity etc etc.
- wyclif 9y ago
  This is an important point. As a westerner living in Asia now, I'm always amused by the maid-mongering that goes on here: "Oh, do you have a maid, a driver, and servants?" These are widespread status symbols in Asia. Now, of course these household servants perform valuable labour here. But where I'm from, a technologically advanced country- we've largely obviated household help. We have central HVAC, automatic dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, Amazon Echo, Nest, etc etc. There is no need for full-time maids, you see. I'm sorry if this sounds smug, but it's true. Indians reminding westerners that they have maids is something that makes us smile knowingly. Residual colonialism in the 21st century doesn't impress us.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    People in USA have maids as status symbol too
    - wyclif 9y ago
      Of course they do, but not nearly to the same extent. And the point here is that in the context of this thread, using maids as a mark on the Indian lifestyle-superiority index in the shadow of IT layoffs is not a good look.
    - mythrwy 9y ago
      In general not though. They have maids because they need them, not as a status symbol. And it is largely for the fairly wealthy and not something generally aspired to (in and of itself). In fact, a lot of people will instantly regard those with maids as "probably assholes" in the US.
    - Viper007Bond 9y ago
      Maybe 100 years ago. I don't know anyone or even heard of anyone with a maid. The closet thing is paying someone to come clean your house once or twice a month for an hour or two and that's pretty inexpensive.
  - Viper007Bond 9y ago
sumedh 9y ago
> And also - we can afford couple of maids in a decent paying job Which is nothing to be proud of, the maids are affordable because lot of poor people did not have the same privileges like you had.
- dominotw 9y ago
  Yea why do Indians always brag about having maids. That's disgusting.
  - sumedh 9y ago
    Unfortunately the poor people who are usually illiterate are treated as a lower class. The rich or upper middle class kids while growing up see that they and their parents can order the maids to do almost anything and so when the kids grow up they see the maids as a class of people who are not equal to them. It becomes a status issue as well if you say you dont have maids then your affluent peers will think you are weird or that you cant even afford a maid.
y4mi 9y ago
> I was talking about this outright dismissal without any ground. The quotes text was an observation without any judgement. The rest of the post addresses how the Indian it industry started to boom and why they're losing so many jobs so quickly. Still no dismissal. It's not that Indian doesn't have talent. It's just that it's not smart to outsource your main competency. So they're not doing that.

aknoob 9y ago

Do you have data supporting your claim. I know a lot of people who are really good and continue to work in India. Infact I have also seen a lot of good people coming back to India (since last 2 - 3 years). So things are gradually improving for good.